Faux ghost bikes

Ghost bikes, in the eyes of any one who isn't involved in the campaign or who hasn't lost some one to cycling on the road are not warnings, they aren't anything special.

You could say that about anything. You should walk past the holocaust memorial in Berlin and not know what it represented or even that it was a memorial. Using people's current ignorance as an argument is stupid.

They are just another roadside memorial to yet another terrible thing that has happened on the street. Its just the same as seeing 20 flowers and some xerox photocopys of a child face tied to the railing of the house where a man broke in and murdered the 16 year old drug dealer living there. Or the flowers tied to the railings for the entire family killed by a drunk driver on the south circular and 7 in the morning on their way to school.

But if they see a white bike and go "someone died here" then there will come a point where they see a white bike (sprayed up, etc, etc) at realise someone has been killed cycling at this point, sub-conciously.

*- I can't say all people for sure. But this is the response I have had from all the people I have actually asked about the campaign, and I have actually asked, a cross section. Not that many, but enough to be fairly sure what I am saying is representative.

*Again, general ignorance and a lack of awareness at the moment doesn't translate to a lack of awareness in the future.

• If its not a memorial then why are most of the people for the ghost bikes referring to it as a memorial.*
  
  

Because the reasons for people wanting one put up vary, but the reason for choosing a ghostbike is for it to serve as a warning. If it was meant to just be a memorial, a plaque or bench would be more usual.

I'm not going to shit of them of course. But I don't stop to read anything about it.I don't ponder my own existance or genuinely care. Its just another. In society where are totaly over-exposed to protests, warnings, peoples causes, charities, memorials, terrible events, bad events, people being killed. We've seen it all, and as a populous we don't care. Thats not to say we endorse it, but we aren't moved by it, it doesn't impact or change our lives.

Ah, apathy. The world's worst reason to not do something.

Everything means something to some one. There are real people behind every campaign or memorial. And its no slight on them that we aren't moved by their campaign or memorial. Its like we are happy for the christian faith to have its symbols inverted, subverted, used out of context, abused etc. And that offends people. But its still done, not usually out of malice, but out of the reality that everything will offend some one somewhere.

Christian symbols are part of our cultural history, so that is a poor example.

Anyway, the Christian Church were very adept at co-opting native traditions and images. Half of the "Christian" mythology in Northern Europe is pagan or Norse in origin.

In this example. your employer is playing the part of the Church, unwittingly or otherwise.

Various things are symbols and have meaning, but only in context. A pink bow used to tie back some ones hair might make you think of it the breast cancer, but isn't a direct link to that symbol if worn regularly.

Bad example, it's a specific type of bow, one which couldn't be accidentally replicated in tying back someone's hair.

The poppy for example. A painting of a poppy or a real poppy don't necessarily mean what you are getting at. Its about context. But you know why they don't campaign for all poppies to mean remembrance? Because the co-opting or misuse of symbols helps to remind people of the desired symbol, and raise awareness of the real thing. People first exposed to an inverted cross soon come to learn what the original symbols means, no?

While this may be the case for very established symbols, it is not the case for the vast majority. Also, I think that if the Church could sue over the use of the crucafix (and I think it has tried, in the past, although mainly in relation to blasphemy/heresy) they would where it was used outside of a Christian context.

(Hypothetically) What about if some little known newly set up charity, set up to help rape victims in war torn countries started to used say a green X as a logo. And you owned a T shirt with a green x on it. Would you through it away because it might offend people who set up the charity? And before you say thats a silly example as you have with every example given against ghost bikes, let me say why its not. Bicycles have been used as advertising boards and a means of advertising for a good while. This isn't the first bike that has ( http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=bicycle+advertising&btnG=Search+Images ). Whats annoying you is it is (off) white. So we literally are talking about the same thing. The T-shirt wouldn't offend if it were not green, only because its green. Do you throw the T away or dye it? Or keep wearing it? What if the T cost more then £3.50. I'm sure you will say you would stop wearing it as soon as it was brought to your attention, but is that really the case?

I've never objected to bikes advertising things, in fact I suggested that it be resprayed.

Your example is misleading anyway. The bike serves a specific purpose - in your example, wearing the t-shirt is like Dave riding around on his Vivalo, something I have no problem with. You would have to wear that t-shirt to a organised march to get anywhere near equivalency.

You can call me a monster or a hater or evil or disrespectful if you want. But to do so is to call the population, and probably people you know those things. Its fine to be critical of mine and others apathy. Infact I would encourage it. BUT, you can't change society in an instance. You have to work with what you got, which is why the ghost bikes don''t work and are just another memorial.

You are right that you won't instantly change society, which is why people need to carry on pushing ghost bikes, get it into the public subconcious. This is why ghost bikes need to kept up and supported.

Bad example, it's a specific type of bow, one which couldn't be accidentally replicated in tying back someone's hair.

Oh, so its a specific type of bike thats a ghost bike, its a:
-White bike, locked up by the roadside, with optional informative text or flowers.

Not a:
-Off white bike, locked up by the roadside with a fucking huge ad board on either side.

There is the same subtle difference no?
Or am I being an "idiot" again?

You are right that you won't instantly change society, which is why people need to carry on pushing ghost bikes, get it into the public subconcious. This is why ghost bikes need to kept up and supported.

No. If certain things cause no reaction you change your plan of attack. You can't change anything by doing the same thing as has always been done. You have to move forward. Not repeat, close eyes, and hope that in the future your campaign will work.

Oh, so its a specific type of bike thats a ghost bike, its a:
-White bike, locked up by the roadside, with optional informative text or flowers.

Not a:
-Off white bike, locked up by the roadside with a fucking huge ad board on either side.

There is the same subtle difference no?
Or am I being an "idiot" again?

And the bass line from Ice Ice Baby was totally different to Under Pressure because it went down slightly instead of up at the end.

Should someone break out a Pantone chart? No - the bike on Brick Lane is materially the same as a ghost bike, with the exception of the A board. If you boss ever opens a shop in New York, perhaps he can put up an A board cut to the shape of a plane at Ground Zero?

Or maybe lay some wreaths with directions to his shop at the Cenotaph?

No. If certain things cause no reaction you change your plan of attack. You can't change anything by doing the same thing as has always been done. You have to move forward. Not repeat, close eyes, and hope that in the future your campaign will work.

I'm sorry that you expect immediate and dramatic results to all of your endeavours. The campaign hasn't failed, it's barely begun.

If this guy was using Nazi symbols to grab attention to advertise people would have a problem with it.

The simple facts are:

Ghost bikes are a really positive thing. There are plenty a shitty things in this world but ghost bikes are a positive one. Lets try and stop the good waters being muddied buy the shitty things.

If ghost bikes raise awareness just one megafonzy then they are worth it and deserve to be "protected".

People, generally, should rally around to support and help one another, therefore, the owner of this place should be thinking "Hey, I wont do that, I'll be a nice guy, rather than attempting to be clever through nihilism and ending up being a penis".

Cyclist together should support cycling related issues. While the ghost bikes thing may not be a big issue to me (currently I live in Ireland where there is no ghost bikes thing) but cyclist need to be a large unstoppable mass. So I fighting for these little things we can all come together and fight for positive things in the future.. having not been split apart over these issues.

Peace

i see ghost bikes as the singular most negative aspect of promoting cycling.

there is nothing positive about advertising death.

we should be celebrating life.

this is my opinion, nothing else. i personally think there are better ways to raise awareness and encourage cycling whilst making drivers and politicians more aware of our safety than ghost bikes. they're already becoming twee.

advertising death? What, you think now all the cool kids will want to die so they can get there own ghost bikes? It's just like that designer coffin movement that made all those kids commit suicide in the 80's, innit?

I love ghost bikes. I don't know anyone who has died and now has a ghost bike, but seeing a visable reminder of a cyclist who has died at a time when all cyclists are battling to be seen is a very powerful statement to me.

I have a few gallons of pink paint left over from my room. Anyone wanna help?

advertise: to call to public attention. i suppose if i wanted to be more correct, i could have said publicise.

however, my opinion remains the same.

Wow this is just like an episode of the moral maze... Where's Micheal Buerk?

for my 2 cents I think Ghost bikes are a positive thing showing some kind of basic solidarity between cyclists... its nice to think others care when someone gets hurt or killed riding a bike. Also think the Brick lane bike should be re-sprayed so as to remove the obvious offence it is creating (hence this thread)

"Hey, I wont do that, I'll be a nice guy, rather than attempting to be clever through nihilism and ending up being a penis".

He's not trying to be clever or nihilistic. Its an a-board on a bike that happens to be cream (Not even fucking white). Its not a clever play on any ones suffering, its people reading too much in to nothing, and in the fact that no one knew anything about ghost bikes when it was made it shows the ghost bike campaign to be drastically lacking in its aim of rasing awareness about cycling, given that know one even knows about, or cares about the ghost bikes, let alone the cause. You are making him out to be deliberate an evil. Hes not. Its just a non issue in his eyes. It was a toss up between black and off white, and he went for the latter. Ooooh. What an evil man. You guys are acting like some one killed jesus or summit.

Cyclist together should support cycling related issues.

I don't mean to sound like a massive cunt, but; what a load of fucking bollocks mate.
We aren't one big happy family. We have different opinions to each other. As you can see here not every one supports the campaign. Just because I'm a cyclist doesn't make a clone. I like to think I have retained the ability to think for myself. I don't support the CTC's no RLJ policy, but I do support some of their town planning suggestions.

i see ghost bikes as the singular most negative aspect of promoting cycling.

+1
Agreed. Its a fucking stupid way to promote cycling. It says:
"Hi, loads of people get killed all the time. Roads are really unsafe. But get a bike any way. You might even be lucky enough to get killed and have a ghost bike placed where you took your final breaths."
Definitely a positive outlook.

Also think the Brick lane bike should be re-sprayed so as to remove the obvious offence it is creating (hence this thread)

Most things offend a few people.Tv programes, adverts etc. Its just a fact of life. If you didn't want to offend any body you can only really stay in your room and do nothing. And as I repeatedly keep pointing out, no body outside of the cylcling community and those have known people who died on the roads no about or care about the ghost bikes. So I' sorry you are offended, but its a bit of an over reaction. Its clearly not even a ghost bike. Its an offwhite a board on a bike. Wooot.

In a time of economic slowdown you are seriously asking that we spend money (4 or 5 cans of paint and however many hours of labour) to re-spray it because a handful of people are offended, by something that looks like something else that no one knows or cares about? Maybe if you band together to pay for it, it might be considered. But when we are loosing hours because the business is struggling its hardly likely its going to happen, least of all because its quite frankly a crazy request.

I'm sorry that you expect immediate and dramatic results to all of your endeavours.

I don't. But if you went to an ad agency or what have you and said: "I want to raise awareness of a cause. I have a plan that should yeild some results in x numbers of years," then I doubt you would get a pay rise no?

I have a few gallons of pink paint left over from my room. Anyone wanna help?

Don't be silly. If the bike ends up pink I'm not going to lie about it. I'll be obliged to say you were talking of it. The internet does have connection to the real world. If you are going to commit a crime, and crime it would be, don't be silly enough to tell an employee / casual friend of the victim huh?
Not to mention that its a pathetic thing to do really. Your campaign is so fragile and delicate that it can't handle things that look like it and you have to vandilise things for your campaign.

I'm bored of this and your stupid arguments now. Hopefully I'll be able to resist posting any more on this subject, but:

It wouldn't take 4 or 5 cans of paint and many hours of labour to respray that bike. It would take £4 of paint and 10 minutes - hell people will do it for you for free.

Ghost bikes - if they are being compared to an advertising campaign - would be most akin to a viral campaign. I think that if someone pitched a very low cost viral campaigh to a brand that would take a year, they'd probably go for it.

I will say this once more: GHOST BIKES AREN'T DESIGNED TO PROMOTE CYCLING, THEY ARE DESIGNED TO RAISE AWARENESS OF CYCLIST VULNERABILITY.

Here's to hoping that your boss reaps the rewards of his sensitivty.

There have been some very grown up comments and replies on this thread.

I'm bored of this and your stupid arguments now.

For some one that keeps calling me all the names and saying I'm not a very nice person you are rather rude and offensive. If any arguments that disagree with you are stupid then you must have met alot of stupid people. Stupid and disagree mean different things.

I will say this once more: GHOST BIKES AREN'T DESIGNED TO PROMOTE CYCLING, THEY ARE DESIGNED TO RAISE AWARENESS OF CYCLIST VULNERABILITY.

You sir, are the one missing the point.
I get what they do.
The point is that in doing it they fails to promote cycling, and instead positively discourage people from cycling. We need more cyclists on the road so that the governments (local and national) have to consider cyclists needs more because its no longer a tiny majority of people. This in turn leads to laws and directives funded by the treasury to be started, and those force change. Telling people its dangerous, fatal and not good (which is what Ghost bikes do accidently) doesn't help any one. That is of course assuming they work, and don't just fail (as I believe they do).

Ghost bikes - if they are being compared to an advertising campaign - would be most akin to a viral campaign. I think that if someone pitched a very low cost viral campaigh to a brand that would take a year, they'd probably go for it.

So they are a viral. And a memorial. And a charity. And a symbol. I'm confused. What are your ghost bikes?

And why are they so fragile that they are destroyed by an off-white bike with an a-board on it? Why does such a things existence encourage such feeling of hate in you?

Here's to hoping that your boss reaps the rewards of his sensitivty.

Same could be said of your malice and nastiness to an individual of whome you have never met. Odd things for someone who likes tolerance. You aren't. You believe you are right, and that people who disagree are "stupid" and peole who don't do as you want should be "punished." Thats almost the definition of intolerance. I severly disagree with ghost bikes. I really fucking do. But I'm not going to wish nasty things on their creators or supporters nor am I going to go and steal or vandalise one.

And to go back to my point of not caring. I'm no hypocrite.
On NYE the mayor of Croydon died suddenly. He was my teacher at school, my friend and someone I looked up to. It upsets me greatly. It upsets others. People will read the story in the paper and most wont care, and wont be intersted. Thats the way the world works. Its no slight on him or on me. You probably won't really care, though you may post to say you do, but its not going to affect your life. But I also say this as away of explaing why have been a little rash with my replies today. I'm not quite as level headed as I would normaly be.

I thought I could ignore this arguement, but no... I agree with the Ghost bikes are kinda' negative and don't promote cycling. And also agree with your comments about care-fatigue or whatever some paper decided it was called.

Its just a non issue in his eyes.
Most things offend a few people.Tv programes, adverts etc. Its just a fact of life. If you didn't want to offend any body you can only really stay in your room and do nothing.

Most of us do manage to go for long periods without offending people... obviously posts on internet forums being an exception... also there are degree's and sitting in a pub and using the word gay prejoritively is not the same as dressing as an SS trooper and goosestepping (more particularly when you are in the public eye)...

And as I repeatedly keep pointing out, no body outside of the cylcling community

Hmmm, you would have though a bike shop would be interested in thoughts of the cylcling community?!

In a time of economic slowdown you are seriously asking that we spend money re-spray it because a handful of people are offended,

Well it's a simple cost/benefit equation, will the cost of repainting the bike (or actually allowing the people who've offered to re-paint the bike do so, rather than threatening them!) be more or less than any money you are loosing from people going elsewhere? In this time of econmic slowdown you would have thought that avoiding offending possible customers would become more important not less?

Despite my uncertainty about G-Bs I for one won't be shopping at BLB till I hear the bike's changed colour, just because I think a shop should avoid annoying the community it should be serving. Although having said that, you've probably not missed out on that much trade from me...

Maybe if you band together to pay for it, it might be considered.
I've seen at least one offer to paint it let alone pay for it... and you reply with this...

Don't be silly. If the bike ends up pink I'm not going to lie about it. I'll be obliged to say you were talking of it. The internet does have connection to the real world. If you are going to commit a crime, and crime it would be, don't be silly enough to tell an employee / casual friend of the victim huh?
Not to mention that its a pathetic thing to do really. Your campaign is so fragile and delicate that it can't handle things that look like it and you have to vandilise things for your campaign.
is it just because you don't want it pink? Rascist.

In case the last comment didn't make it clear, I'm not argueing because I particularly care, just because I like argueing... and I hope I've not caused offense...

I have a few gallons of pink paint left over from my room. Anyone wanna help?

let's do it.

First up, this is nothing to do with BLB, so leave them out of this.

For some one that keeps calling me all the names and saying I'm not a very nice person you are rather rude and offensive. If any arguments that disagree with you are stupid then you must have met alot of stupid people. Stupid and disagree mean different things.

I never called you stupid I called your arguments stupid, which they are. Comparing a Labour MP campaigning for office and an endeavour like ghost bikes is a very poor (or "stupid") comparison. I'm not going to list all of your bad arguments, because I only have an hour for lunch.

Other things I've said have been based on what you yourself wrote, generally about your apathy and your boss' self-interest.

You sir, are the one missing the point.
I get what they do.
The point is that in doing it they fails to promote cycling, and instead positively discourage people from cycling. We need more cyclists on the road so that the governments (local and national) have to consider cyclists needs more because its no longer a tiny majority of people. This in turn leads to laws and directives funded by the treasury to be started, and those force change. Telling people its dangerous, fatal and not good (which is what Ghost bikes do accidently) doesn't help any one. That is of course assuming they work, and don't just fail (as I believe they do).

Yeah, I forgot how the rising numbers of cyclists have encouraged the government to do things to encourage cycling. Like allowing motorbikes in bus lanes.

Ghost bikes (as well as leading to improved cyclist safety through raised awareness of risk among motorists) are a high profile reminder of government policy failings. If the scheme is widespread, do you think any elected body is going to risk a build up of these symbols of their negligence?

So they are a viral. And a memorial. And a charity. And a symbol. I'm confused. What are your ghost bikes?

No, they are akin to a viral. They are a memorial if people want them to be. They are not a charity, although they are a charitable endeavour.

I shall try and explain this to you simply, as it's not a hard concept to grasp. I will use an analogy, a fact that I will state now just to be safe:

The poppy campaign uses the symbol of the poppy as a memorial to people that died in the war. They serve to remind people of what happened (like a viral). The poppy campaign is not for profit, it is run as a charity.

All of the qualities you mentioned are not mutually exclusive.

And why are they so fragile that they are destroyed by an off-white bike with an a-board on it? Why does such a things existence encourage such feeling of hate in you?

1. The bike is - in appearance and position - materially similar to ghost bikes, enough to cause confusion.

2. It is mainly your boss' and your apathy and self interest that has riled me. £4 and 10 minutes is what was asked.

Same could be said of your malice and nastiness to an individual of whome you have never met.

Never met you? We have met actually.

Odd things for someone who likes tolerance. You aren't. You believe you are right, and that people who disagree are "stupid" and peole who don't do as you want should be "punished." Thats almost the definition of intolerance. I severly disagree with ghost bikes. I really fucking do. But I'm not going to wish nasty things on their creators or supporters nor am I going to go and steal or vandalise one.

I've never preached tolerance, it was your arguments that I called stupid (although you have swayed my opinion somewhat). I've heard one solid argument against ghost bikes and it didn't originate from you, although you have tried to repeat it in a slightly less effective way.

And to go back to my point of not caring. I'm no hypocrite.
On NYE the mayor of Croydon died suddenly. He was my teacher at school, my friend and someone I looked up to. It upsets me greatly. It upsets others. People will read the story in the paper and most wont care, and wont be intersted. Thats the way the world works. Its no slight on him or on me. You probably won't really care, though you may post to say you do, but its not going to affect your life. But I also say this as away of explaing why have been a little rash with my replies today. I'm not quite as level headed as I would normaly be.

A friend dies, so your indifference to an effort being made to save lives is nullified? I may not have any great opinion about your friend's death, but I sure as hell wouldn't be ripping off a British Heart Foundation (or whatever) advert to advertise where I worked.

Oh for fucks sake somebody just fucking nick the bike.