Faux ghost bikes

Bikes advertising things? Great! The more bikes that are seen around the urban environment, the better. Some might be memorials, but why should that be the primary function, or even associated with the colour white? I might put a black bike somewhere as a memorial if I felt like it. On the other hand, you can't just stick a bike somewhere and expect people to understand that it's a memorial. The information attached to recent ghost bikes is good because it gives them meaning for those not necessarily in the know.

Vandalised bikes like James Foster's ghost bike (Essex Road outside Mosquito) are not good. It made me sad when I saw it (having previously seen it intact). But I thought, pretty much all memorials get vandalised occasionally, whether they are in cemeteries or, say, a war memorial. Why should bike memorials be different? They need to be maintained, they can't just be abandoned.

The ghost bike idea is good at least because it's controversial and stimulates debate.
Talking to a small shop about their advertising is just part of that debate that develops. It raises awareness, although it's always important to be careful that it doesn't make cycling sound horribly dangerous.

(By no means everybody is in favour of ghost bikes. Some people argue that it exaggerates danger to cyclists. What about the 200+ pedestrians who are mown down by motorists in London every year? Others feel ghost bike memorials really help them in focusing their grief and concern. In any case, the awareness raising achieved by them must be accompanied by concrete steps to make things better or ghost bikes risk becoming some kind of compensation for lack of improvement.)

This is Madeline Wrights bike on Penton Rise. It's a great job and very moving but it will start to fade and it will lose it's impact.
You won't stop the theft. it's sad but there are those out there that are.. wired different

The addition of flowers and pictures is a great touch but like any grave they look as fresh as the memory

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Just saw that today, first 'proper' ghost bike I've seen. Pretty moving. If I can find my old lock I'm going to add it.

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Harry dear chap. It matters not one iota whether I agree or disagree with what you say but may I suggest you delete it from here and pop it into the Private Forum as, otherwise, the insensitive gentleman for whom you work might become sufficiently browned off with all the calls he receives at your suggestion that he might decide to terminate your services or just wallop you.

Just a suggestion.

Harry

That's cool.

Though I was very polite when I came in, did not swear or do anything offensive or abusive. I was told something would be done about it.

This was months ago.

+1 to what Clive said.

James: All the staff can do is pass it on to the boss. If he won't do anything there is nothing any one working in the forum can do.

Clive: Good point. Doing it now.

When I went in, I was told that everyone knew about ghost bikes and didn't care.

Personally, I hope it gets resprayed or relocated to an actual ghost bike site. Your boss' lack of understanding for people trying to raise awareness of cyclist vulnerability is matched only by my anger at this fact.

I hope that people show your boss as much compassion as he has shown the ghost bike project.

This thread has utterly depressed me.
When they changed The Easter holidays to Spring holidays and Christmas to Winter festival i thought that it was the fault of politicians and buerocrats in some far off EU parliament but i now realise that that "P.C. gone mad" is a problem created by people in our own country whose lives are so sad they have to find shit like this to complain about.
I mean GET A FUCKING LIFE people.
How many members of this forum ride "stealth" all black bikes?
If you get upset by this bike being used as an advert then how do you feel about the people that have taken the symbol of your movement and inverted it?
Must be like a christian seeing an inverted crucifix.
And what about the people that ride on brightly colour blocked bikes?
Aren't they taking the basis of the Ghost bike movement and making an utter mockery of it by substitutuing bright happy colours for the white?

I'm ashamed to be associated with a group of small minded, petty, self righteous idiots.

When I went in, I was told that everyone knew about ghost bikes and didn't care.

Personally, I hope it gets resprayed or relocated to an actual ghost bike site. Your boss' lack of understanding for people trying to raise awareness of cyclist vulnerability is matched only by my anger at this fact.

I hope that people show your boss as much compassion as he has shown the ghost bike project.

That maybe because no one outside the cycling community who hasn't been directly affected by some one being killed on their bike gives a shit about the project, and loads of cyclists don't either. In most peoples eyes its just another thing. Just another petition. Just another campaign, just another chained up bike, just another grave. People just don't give two shits about it. No one I know who doesn't cycle, and even most of those that do (including me) don't care and don't want to. Its just another something.

Thats one of the reasons I don't like the campaign. The other is I think its ineffective and silly. But thats by the by.

As for wishing bad things to a person. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that thats how you feel. Its also made me sorry that I even tried to explain or help you out. If you are just a vindictive little crusader who doesn't give a shit about people then why the hell do you support the campaign thats all about a few people? My boss may not care about your campaign, but then do you care about every campaign? Ever been a little mean to a charity mugger? not cared about advertising that plays on a cause? Ever ignored or binned flyers petitioning for this or that or told your local labour caandidate to leave you alone because you are having your tea? Your campaign gets in peoples faces. They are allowed to hate your campaign for it. You aren't allowed to hate people who happen to have things like your bike or who don't give a shit. Thats life, and you are being uneccesarily nasty.

EDIT: Damn it, I wasn't going to get drawn in. sorry. I just hate this thing that these memorials are sacred and afford rights and privileges that nothing else gets.

Bikes are cool, its always interesting and/or nice to see a bike. I dont really care what colour they are, and they make great memorials... much more impact than a couple of lines in the local paper, which will be in the recycling box within a week.
What cycling does not need is a bunch of rules on how to use your bike and what colour it should be.

That maybe because no one outside the cycling community who hasn't been directly affected by some one being killed on their bike gives a shit about the project, and loads of cyclists don't either. In most peoples eyes its just another thing. Just another petition. Just another campaign, just another chained up bike, just another grave. People just don't give two shits about it. No one I know who doesn't cycle, and even most of those that do (including me) don't care and don't want to. Its just another something.

Thats one of the reasons I don't like the campaign. The other is I think its ineffective and silly. But thats by the by.

As for wishing bad things to a person. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that thats how you feel. Its also made me sorry that I even tried to explain or help you out. If you are just a vindictive little crusader who doesn't give a shit about people then why the hell do you support the campaign thats all about a few people? My boss may not care about your campaign, but then do you care about every campaign? Ever been a little mean to a charity mugger? not cared about advertising that plays on a cause? Ever ignored or binned flyers petitioning for this or that or told your local labour caandidate to leave you alone because you are having your tea? Your campaign gets in peoples faces. They are allowed to hate your campaign for it. You aren't allowed to hate people who happen to have things like your bike or who don't give a shit. Thats life, and you are being uneccesarily nasty.

EDIT: Damn it, I wasn't going to get drawn in. sorry. I just hate this thing that these memorials are sacred and afford rights and privileges that nothing else gets.

+1 innit, how d' you like them apples?

That maybe because no one outside the cycling community who hasn't been directly affected by some one being killed on their bike gives a shit about the project, and loads of cyclists don't either. In most peoples eyes its just another thing. Just another petition. Just another campaign, just another chained up bike, just another grave. People just don't give two shits about it. No one I know who doesn't cycle, and even most of those that do (including me) don't care and don't want to. Its just another something.

Thats one of the reasons I don't like the campaign. The other is I think its ineffective and silly. But thats by the by.

As for wishing bad things to a person. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that thats how you feel. Its also made me sorry that I even tried to explain or help you out. If you are just a vindictive little crusader who doesn't give a shit about people then why the hell do you support the campaign thats all about a few people? My boss may not care about your campaign, but then do you care about every campaign? Ever been a little mean to a charity mugger? not cared about advertising that plays on a cause? Ever ignored or binned flyers petitioning for this or that or told your local labour caandidate to leave you alone because you are having your tea? Your campaign gets in peoples faces. They are allowed to hate your campaign for it. You aren't allowed to hate people who happen to have things like your bike or who don't give a shit. Thats life, and you are being uneccesarily nasty.

EDIT: Damn it, I wasn't going to get drawn in. sorry. I just hate this thing that these memorials are sacred and afford rights and privileges that nothing else gets.

I don't care about every campaign, but I certainly wouldn't do anything to detract from their effectiveness. Advertising a shop with a white bike when people have taken the time to explain the significance of it is like advertising with a pink bow.

When people co-opt the iconography of the ghost bike project, they undermine it's effective and future impact. The fact that you are apathetic about it does nothing to persuade me of the usefulness of ghost bikes.

As for not caring about people: I do. That's why I support ghost bikes and the fact that given time and support, they will highlight problem areas in general and the needs for motorists to treat cyclists with caution specifically. If anyone can be accused of not caring, it is your boss who - by all accounts - is too self-involved to spend £4 on a can of Hammerite and spray the Brick Lane bike grey when (by your own admission) it could do with touching up.

As an aside, all of your examples were pretty poorly thought out, which seems to be an overriding theme of the anti-ghost bikes argument (with the exception of the critical mass one, which is more chicken/egg). To answer one of your examples, I've ignored chuggers, but I've never stood next to them shouting "the NSPCA have not been proved to have a material effect on cases of child abuse" or similar (which is a more accurate equivalent of what your boss is doing). And if you think that ghost bikes are equivalent to campaigning for political office, I'm stunned by your lack of understanding of the issues.

That maybe because no one outside the cycling community who hasn't been directly affected by some one being killed on their bike gives a shit about the project, and loads of cyclists don't either. In most peoples eyes its just another thing. Just another petition. Just another campaign, just another chained up bike, just another grave. People just don't give two shits about it. No one I know who doesn't cycle, and even most of those that do (including me) don't care and don't want to. Its just another something.

Thats one of the reasons I don't like the campaign. The other is I think its ineffective and silly. But thats by the by.

As for wishing bad things to a person. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that thats how you feel. Its also made me sorry that I even tried to explain or help you out. If you are just a vindictive little crusader who doesn't give a shit about people then why the hell do you support the campaign thats all about a few people? My boss may not care about your campaign, but then do you care about every campaign? Ever been a little mean to a charity mugger? not cared about advertising that plays on a cause? Ever ignored or binned flyers petitioning for this or that or told your local labour caandidate to leave you alone because you are having your tea? Your campaign gets in peoples faces. They are allowed to hate your campaign for it. You aren't allowed to hate people who happen to have things like your bike or who don't give a shit. Thats life, and you are being uneccesarily nasty.

EDIT: Damn it, I wasn't going to get drawn in. sorry. I just hate this thing that these memorials are sacred and afford rights and privileges that nothing else gets.

No, no, no and no

I get you work at the shop. I get people that work at the shop have had abuse because of the faux ghost bike. I get that the said bike has nothing to do with the ghost bike campaign. What I don't get is this negative response. Ghost bikes represent lives lost, and that should matter to everyone, whether they cycle or not. Sacrality is an individual thing, but at the end of the day we hug this mortal coil as tightly as possible, and that is sacred in itself. Don't disrespect the emotions of the cycling community, and lives we have lost. I think it says a lot about you as a person that you respond in this way.

And no, I don't disrespect other people's campaigns. Tolerance is my watchword. You don't care about others? Then I don't care about you. You try to dress what you're saying up, but all I hear is hate

I just hate this thing that these memorials are sacred and afford rights and privileges that nothing else gets.

Would you rip down the flowers that a family has put by the roadside to commemorate a loved one killed in a car crash?

Would you pop up a faux floral tribute as an advertising stunt?

Would you desecrate a war memorial? Would you use the poppy symbol in an advertising campaign?

Just wondered.

This thread has utterly depressed me.
When they changed The Easter holidays to Spring holidays and Christmas to Winter festival i thought that it was the fault of politicians and buerocrats in some far off EU parliament but i now realise that that "P.C. gone mad" is a problem created by people in our own country whose lives are so sad they have to find shit like this to complain about.
I mean GET A FUCKING LIFE people.
How many members of this forum ride "stealth" all black bikes?
If you get upset by this bike being used as an advert then how do you feel about the people that have taken the symbol of your movement and inverted it?
Must be like a christian seeing an inverted crucifix.
And what about the people that ride on brightly colour blocked bikes?
Aren't they taking the basis of the Ghost bike movement and making an utter mockery of it by substitutuing bright happy colours for the white?

I'm ashamed to be associated with a group of small minded, petty, self righteous idiots.

Bikes are cool, its always interesting and/or nice to see a bike. I dont really care what colour they are, and they make great memorials... much more impact than a couple of lines in the local paper, which will be in the recycling box within a week.
What cycling does not need is a bunch of rules on how to use your bike and what colour it should be.

Is this miss the point day? We're not talking about bikes that are being ridden around here. People can ride whatever colour bikes they want (I'm certainly not got any problem with Slaytanic's white on white Vivalo). We are specifically talking about bikes that are:

1. Not ridden nor I suspect rideable

2. Sprayed white (as in everything, not a white frame with white deep-Vs, everything).

3. Locked permanently (or semi-permanently) in a specific location

And as for Merak's response, that's pretty mature. I don't like those apples much, because the owner of said apples can't tell the difference between them and pears, it seems.

god. i feel really guilty about this. let's not shit on harry because he works there. in fairness, he was just trying to explain that while people who work there might be sympathetic, his boss doesn't give a shit and won't give a shit until it affects his profits. regardless of how you feel about ghost bikes, be nice to the poor people who have to deal with the aftermath of a boss's bad decision...

And as for Merak's response, that's pretty mature. I don't like those apples much, because the owner of said apples can't tell the difference between them and pears, it seems.

Tom,

Its clear this is somewhat of a crusade for you which is admirable in itself, but ultimately futile. Your stoic determination in the support of shitty white bikes being used as memorials to folk that have died whilst riding would be better spent lobbying your local council about more cycle lanes. If you feel that strongly about it. That really will make a difference, it may not save lives, but I can tell you white bikes will not make any difference!

I will not be lobbying my local council because as Ive said to you before we as cyclists take our chances on the road just as you do when you go for a walk in the park. You obviously like the white bike thing which is fine but don't be so naive as to think they are actually going to make drivers think about checking their blind spot or being more aware of cyclists.

Its up to you to ride defensively and be aware of the road users around you. You are responsible for your own actions on the road. Other peoples actions cannot be dictated and certainly not influenced buy an all white bike locked to a railing at a busy junction.

I am not an insensitive person, indeed after consideration and posting so much on the subject I feel I could be swayed by the argument of bikes as a memorial. I still don't like the term ghost bikes though or the all white thing.

The fact is though, and this is the point *you *seem to be missing, they are exactly that, a memorial, nothing more and will have no effect of the conscience of the average driver.

.

I am not an insensitive person, indeed after consideration and posting so much on the subject I feel I could be swayed by the argument of bikes as a memorial. I still don't like the term ghost bikes though or the all white thing.

The fact is though, and this is the point *you *seem to be missing, they are exactly that, a memorial, nothing more and will have no effect of the conscience of the average driver.

First and foremost, they are not a memorial. If people wish them to have a memorial aspect to them, that is fine, but they are there as a warning.

Ghost bikes are in effect a sign; that is why a simple, clear aesthetic is needed and why it needs protecting. The more tatty, unrideable, bikes that are sprayed white and locked up by roads which have nothing to do with ghost bikes, the more people will just ignore all of these white bikes, ghost bikes included.

I respect the fact that you are unconvinced by the effectiveness of the campaign - at present it may not be having a huge impact - but I can only hope it will in the future. The point here is that if the ghost bike "brand" (like the poppy, or pink ribbons) isn't protected, it will be doomed to failure.

The ghost bike thing doesn't depend on councils - if councils cared enough to put this sort of signage up at junctions, we'd probably not need the ghost bike project.

so why not trademark it?

so why not trademark it?

Impractical, expensive, etc.

Just look how many people rip off other protected images (dodgy market stall Burberry, etc). These companies have trading standards and lawyers, but it still happens.

I think that tradmarking/copyrighting/etc would be a fools errand.

Ghost bikes, in the eyes of any one who isn't involved in the campaign or who hasn't lost some one to cycling on the road are not warnings, they aren't anything special. They are just another roadside memorial to yet another terrible thing that has happened on the street. Its just the same as seeing 20 flowers and some xerox photocopys of a child face tied to the railing of the house where a man broke in and murdered the 16 year old drug dealer living there. Or the flowers tied to the railings for the entire family killed by a drunk driver on the south circular and 7 in the morning on their way to school.

*- I can't say all people for sure. But this is the response I have had from all the people I have actually asked about the campaign, and I have actually asked, a cross section. Not that many, but enough to be fairly sure what I am saying is representative.

• If its not a memorial then why are most of the people for the ghost bikes referring to it as a memorial.*
  
  

I'm not going to shit of them of course. But I don't stop to read anything about it.I don't ponder my own existance or genuinely care. Its just another. In society where are totaly over-exposed to protests, warnings, peoples causes, charities, memorials, terrible events, bad events, people being killed. We've seen it all, and as a populous we don't care. Thats not to say we endorse it, but we aren't moved by it, it doesn't impact or change our lives.

Everything means something to some one. There are real people behind every campaign or memorial. And its no slight on them that we aren't moved by their campaign or memorial. Its like we are happy for the christian faith to have its symbols inverted, subverted, used out of context, abused etc. And that offends people. But its still done, not usually out of malice, but out of the reality that everything will offend some one somewhere. Various things are symbols and have meaning, but only in context. A pink bow used to tie back some ones hair might make you think of it the breast cancer, but isn't a direct link to that symbol if worn regularly. The poppy for example. A painting of a poppy or a real poppy don't necessarily mean what you are getting at. Its about context. But you know why they don't campaign for all poppies to mean remembrance? Because the co-opting or misuse of symbols helps to remind people of the desired symbol, and raise awareness of the real thing. People first exposed to an inverted cross soon come to learn what the original symbols means, no?

(Hypothetically) What about if some little known newly set up charity, set up to help rape victims in war torn countries started to used say a green X as a logo. And you owned a T shirt with a green x on it. Would you through it away because it might offend people who set up the charity? And before you say thats a silly example as you have with every example given against ghost bikes, let me say why its not. Bicycles have been used as advertising boards and a means of advertising for a good while. This isn't the first bike that has ( http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=bicycle+advertising&btnG=Search+Images ). Whats annoying you is it is (off) white. So we literally are talking about the same thing. The T-shirt wouldn't offend if it were not green, only because its green. Do you throw the T away or dye it? Or keep wearing it? What if the T cost more then £3.50. I'm sure you will say you would stop wearing it as soon as it was brought to your attention, but is that really the case?

As for me being full of hate. lol. I do have a habit of hating things. Most things really. Most people. But whether I'm joking about that or not, what we are talking about here is apathy. Not hate. It doesn't effect me and I don't care about it. I'm not going to vandilise it but then I don't vandilise anything. Its not because its sacred, but because vandalism isn't nice. That said I sure to god wish people had the courage to take dead and dying flowers off memorials, ghost bikes or otherwise. They looks horrid.

So be clear here. I'm arguing that the bikes don't work and can never work. That they are perceived as memorials and people have seen enough of them. They won't get curious and google it, they'll just go to work. Obvious slogans work better for getting a point across. These just read as another memorial. I'm not commenting on why the campaign is a bad idea in the first place. I think that POV has been put across enough (that of its not giving out the right message in the right way). I guess it ties in though.

You can call me a monster or a hater or evil or disrespectful if you want. But to do so is to call the population, and probably people you know those things. Its fine to be critical of mine and others apathy. Infact I would encourage it. BUT, you can't change society in an instance. You have to work with what you got, which is why the ghost bikes don''t work and are just another memorial.

As for tolerance being your watchword: great. I'm all for tolerance. I'm tolerant of your ideas, and of you, your right to have them and the right of the ghost bikes to exist. Just because I think you are wrong and don't invest my emotions in every cause I come to doesn't make me intolerant. And implying I'm intolerant for not agreeing with you is hardly tolerant. And for the record I respect the right of things like neo-nazi groups to exist. Opinions of all flavours should be allowed to be voiced. Actions are what you should be reprimanded on.

As for my watchword, its criticality. I'm critical of everything I encounter, and because of that I deem the ghost bike thing to be ineffective and the people a little overly sensitive.

And Teddy, its fine. I appreciate what you are saying, but I do like a discussion really.

- When I say you, I'm not referring to a specific one of you. I can't remember who said what. Sorry. If I had more time I would.

Impractical, expensive, etc.

Just look how many people rip off other protected images (dodgy market stall Burberry, etc). These companies have trading standards and lawyers, but it still happens.

I think that tradmarking/copyrighting/etc would be a fools errand.

Oh. You arguing on our side now? ;-)
You are admitting that all signs get co-opted and there is nothing you can do right?