90 quids in fines in two days

the city of london police have a task force to fine cyclists. operation 'some-thing' hence lots of fines in the city. (hammersmith maybe exception).

The police claim that they also enforce against users of motor vehicles, although it has to be said that there is little evidence that this enforcement is even-handed.

i think this is all related is to the fact that basically roads are designed to separate pedestrians (things that are random) and vehicles (steel metal boxes that are not) - there was never any intention to accommodate cyclists.

Not quite. Pedal cycles count as carriages in law and therefore belong in the carriageway (as opposed to the footway, usually referred to as 'pavement', often not present on roads but generally provided along city streets). Most streets are perfectly adequate for cycling on; what puts people off is the behaviour of drivers.

Pedestrians have slower forward movement than vehicles and readier lateral movement, but that doesn't make them "random". Also, they're obviously not 'things'. ;) While it makes sense to separate them from carriages and vehicles in many contexts, the movement towards traffic calming and 'de-engineering' (Google 'naked streets') has questioned this.

The original reason why footways were created, which is no longer highly necessary, was so that people could walk without sinking into the appalling, often muddy surfaces of unpaved city streets (churned up by horses, carts and carriages); footways were raised and paved, hence the name 'pavements', but 'footway' is the more accurate term (as most roads and streets are also paved or metalled nowadays) and shows what they are for.

police are just getting pressure from the media to try to do the best they can

Police priorities are set by a variety of mechanisms, including (if you can manage to find info about yours) the Community Advisory Panels (CAPs) that influence the work done by the Safer Neighbourhood Teams. Worth plugging into, whether you agree or disagree with existing policing priorities in your immediate area. Other targets that are set for the police are inherently political. And of course it is all influenced by laws, practicalities and the attitudes of police on the ground. As ever, there is good policing and poor policing.

The police claim that they also enforce against users of motor vehicles, although it has to be said that there is little evidence that this enforcement is even-handed.

Is there evidence that it isn't even handed?

My favourite ever police chase story, courtesy of Hael and MA3k...

'Ma3k and I spent the night at hammersmith station a while ago, we ran a deserted red light then saw the blue lights come on, thought ah fook, decided we werent stopping proceded to sprint down what we thought was a side street.. ended up at a dead end! so turned to welcome the approaching police car then I dunno why we did but we both took off again past the old bill ...after about 10 min of the slowest car chase you would ever see with a copper hanging out the window shouting "stop you CUNTS!" we got cut off by another cop car and van.. I remeber being hauled to the ground still clipped in getting cuffed and a big Kojack looking copper saying to me "Could you not hear the siren?? or see the lights!!" I replied "oh they were for me?" we got bundled down the station (after they stopped at the garage to buy something) While searching my bag they were asking how much we had to drink I replied "2 beers each" he then proceded to pull out 4 of the clear plastic 6 pack holders and raised an eyebrow, in the back ground I could see Ma3k getting shoved forward in to the holding cells asking "why the fuck [the other copper] is he putting rubber gloves on?".
They let me go after about 5 hours, but kept Ma3k in cause he gave them every address he had previously live at in the last 10 years. started to cycle home and after about 5 min I heard a car come up behind me and police sirens come on.. thought oh for fuck sake, but ill stop this time turned round and it was the same fuckers they just kept driving pissing them selfs laughing ...lol bastards, id have done the same.

believe it or not nothing came of it, just locked us up and let us go. Tho I think ill just stop next time..'

Is there evidence that it isn't even handed?

Oh I think that an FOI request is in order.

I would love to see the number of tickets given to cars/motorbikes in the ASLs vs. the number of tickets given to cyclists for RLJs. (both highway code violations)

Mr. Shick...does the LCC have those numbers?

On Hammersmith there is a sign saying no cycling. Therefore you are not allowed to cycle on it. For other places, look out for signs.

Is there? I thought it said something along the lines of "Cycling not recommended". I rode over it every day for 6 years (until I had to ride with a folder, and therefore deemed it 'not recommended' to myself) and only had one car bib at me. I gave him the bird.

Used to be a right cunt in the winter when the gap in between the sections was wide (gap closes in hot weather).

Is there evidence that it isn't even handed?

Oh I think that an FOI request is in order.

I would love to see the number of tickets given to cars/motorbikes in the ASLs vs. the number of tickets given to cyclists for RLJs. (both highway code violations)

Mr. Shick...does the LCC have those numbers?

We have some, mostly relating to City Police actions. This page is a bit shrill but has numbers:

http://www.citycyclists.org.uk/policeclampdown.html

The City Police have done the most high-profile enforcement events, at key junctions around the City. I would say that we actually have a better working relationship with them now and as cycling levels in the City are so high they are developing a better understanding of cycling. But there is still work to do.

One thing that is key to understand is that offences by users of motor vehicles (talking on a mobile phone, occupying the advanced stop box, speeding, etc.) tend to be different from those committed by cyclists (cycling on footways, jumping red lights, going contraflow where no contraflow is provided pretty much sum up the smaller 'public order' offences) and more difficult to enforce.

For instance, the City police have actually done some enforcement against drivers entering advanced stop line boxes, while the Metropolitan Police have apparently not. The City Police are calling for ASL boxes to become enforceable by camera surveillance. At the moment, it is impossible to fine drivers for ASL encroachment unless an officer actually sees a driver enter one while the light was red--it is permitted to stop in the box if the light was just going red when the driver entered it--lots of grey areas.

Enforcement against speeding is almost never done AFAIK.

Enforcement against typical cycling offences is also easier as it is possible to hand out fixed penalty notices for these offences--this isn't possible for things like dangerous or careless driving, where drivers need to be formally charged, causing a lot of work for the police and the courts. To be fair to the police, the law is not very good there. Charges are usually only brought in extreme cases (e.g. in case of collisions causing damage or injury) as police would have to prepare statements and take time off to go to court.

Have a look at this police release relating to an enforcement campaign in January 2008:
http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/Media/News/safercycling.htm

Note that the release starts with positives: "The campaign will see officers providing crime prevention/reduction advice on securing cycles. The overall aim is to reduce casualties, help improve road safety for pedestrians and cyclists and reduce the number of traffic offences committed."

The release then quotes a figure of 61 cyclists in an hour failing to comply with the traffic signals at Ludgate Circus. There was no parallel count or investigation into offences by drivers even though the second priority of this action was: "Officers from the Roads Policing Unit will also be enforcing Advanced Stop Lines rules for motor vehicle users." If you look at the stats on the City Cyclists page above you can make up your own mind what you would choose as a policing priority.

Also: "Previous operations have raised awareness of the need for all road users to be aware of pedal cyclists and for cyclists themselves to obey traffic laws."

It has to be said that the common driver excuse 'sorry mate, I didn't see you' (SMIDSY) is scarcely believable given that pedal cyclists make up 10-20% of peak hour traffic in the City. It is often not an awareness problem at all but very deliberately inconsiderate driving around cyclists. These are points that have to sink into the collective consciousness. Often subtle, their effect can be to really influence behaviour, most significantly into reducing road danger at source, not to deal with the aftermath.

Nonetheless, what we need is police cautioning and charging drivers (and indeed some cyclists) with the offences of inconsiderate & careless driving (or cycling). The police have used head-mounted cameras to play back a video recording of offences to offenders, which is highly effective.

A 2005 study carried out at Ludgate Circus for the London Cycle Network Plus stated that 1 in 10 cyclists at Fleet St / Fetter Lane junction were observed not complying with the traffic signals. This does not seem worse than the proportion of drivers who don't comply with the speed limit (some surveys suggest that as many as 70% admit breaking speed limits routinely), drive while using a mobile phone, or drive inconsiderately.

From the City Cyclists list:

"During the study period Ludgate Circus had 26 collisions, with 9 involving cyclists. None involved failure to comply with a traffic signal. The main individual factor was drivers turning left, right or u-turning and hitting a cyclist. Since then there have been a couple of collisions involving cyclists and other vehicles disobeying red lights (particularly on Bishopsgate - London Bridge) but it is not a major factor."

Sorry, this post is already way too long, I'm sure I could dredge up a lot more.

I've pegged it from a cop once. I undertook a stationary streetcar in Toronto just as the doors were opening (properly illegal). He beckoned me over and I started to then looked at him on his hard tail, looked at the empty intersection and decided to go for it. I think he started after me but I can't imagine I was worth it. Downtown Toronto is a handy place for doing a bunk, lots of handly little back alleys and cut throughs for a high disappearance factor.

i ran from a motorbike copper in the us of a once. blew a light infront of him, and he was on me like stink on shit. i peged it through a flat car park and up an ally, then through a few tight gaps, and another red, but he was still there. i was going north the next block was a 4 lane one way westbound. i new the westbout was about to get a green, at the last seccond i threw a left (east) turn up it as the cars started coming, i went in the gap bewteen lanes 3 and 4, he did not follow me throught that.

I've pegged it from a cop once. I undertook a stationary streetcar in Toronto just as the doors were opening (properly illegal). He beckoned me over and I started to then looked at him on his hard tail, looked at the empty intersection and decided to go for it. I think he started after me but I can't imagine I was worth it. Downtown Toronto is a handy place for doing a bunk, lots of handly little back alleys and cut throughs for a high disappearance factor.

i ran from a motorbike copper in the us of a once. blew a light infront of him, and he was on me like stink on shit. i peged it through a flat car park and up an ally, then through a few tight gaps, and another red, but he was still there. i was going north the next block was a 4 lane one way westbound. i new the westbout was about to get a green, at the last seccond i threw a left (east) turn up it as the cars started coming, i went in the gap bewteen lanes 3 and 4, he did not follow me throught that.

both very impressive stories, i've always wanted to try my luck at running from police, but i think central london isn't the easyest area to do it, plus these days they just radio ahead and someone else picks you up

both very impressive stories, i've always wanted to try my luck at running from police, but i think central london isn't the easyest area to do it, plus these days they just radio ahead and someone else picks you up

Seconded. I'd love to try it in Chelt. Know every inch of this town, reckon they would struggle

Seconded. I'd love to try it in Chelt. Know every inch of this town, reckon they would struggle

a one cop town would definetly be good, only problem is if theres a town that small the roads are bound to be long and open so the car would always win in the straight

There's one than one Cop here. It's not quite like Hot Fuzz, despite what a Londoner thought recently when I took him down my local for some scrumpy. Problem (or not) here is the cops barely bat an eyelid at cyclists. Done a few sketchy things in front of the polis and had no reaction. In London, due to the number cyclists, they're obviously a lot tougher. I would have to up my game I'm thinking

.Quote: Originally Posted by Mr Helpful Busy at the Met
The advanced stop line merely creates a different stop line for different classes of vehicle. Accordingly there is no specific offence of contravening an advanced stop line. Our systems do not differentiate between automatic traffic signal offences at conventional stop lines and those at advanced stop lines.

This para sounds as if it has been taken out of context? There may be a finer legal point here that I can't grasp.

For the record, here's Highway Code rule 178:
178

Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 36(1) & 43(2)]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070332

i ran from two pushbike cops after running a red once, they chased me from Bank to moorgate before i started shitting myself and just stopped at a red. they pulled me off my bike thinking i was a terrorist/criminal, after a few checks + a search they just let me go.

Its seems if you've done nothing wrong they dont really do anything.
Running from the po-po sounds like a fun idea.

Except the fact your putting yourself and other people in danger and wasting time.
That seriously wont deter me from doing it..

bank to moorgates not too far you should have gone into the london wall carpark at one entrance blitzed through and out the other entrance, round the roundabout and into barbican. i reckon in the squaremile i could outrun a bike copper the easiest, until they radio for back up

yeah thats what i was worried about, they told me when they stopped me that if i had run one more light, they would've radioed for backup and i didn't wanna get gunned down by some trigger happy policeman! It turned out alrite tho, he told me I was under arrest at first but after searching me he just let me go, i was laughing at them for being so slow :) .. couldn't been worse, really.

What are the rules for cars waiting in cycle lanes? Barrelling toward traffic lights at the bottom of a short hill, cycle lane starts on the left about 200 yards before the lights, minibus waiting in left lane but plenty of space on the left, so I go left. In front of the minibus is a car indicating left but not fully to the curb but completely in my way. Came to a clumsy stop and settled for some gesticulation, pointing at the cycling lane then at me, 'My space, mine all mine' in demento sign language, before throwing up my arm, demento sign language for 'twatbag'. Because I had made such a fuss I had to wait at the red light, which is annoying because it is a threeway filter into a one-way and if you come in from my direction you don't cross any lines of traffic, just skulk in on the left. Plus there are endless reds simply for the peds to cross

I got busted in the middle of the treasure cat the other day, I rode past them across a 4 way junction following jbcommuter as I was going way too fast to stop as it was just changing red, so I thought fuck it, its almost.... just about..... probably not RLJ'in.....well turns out I was wrong haha. I heard some sirens etc, not thinking it was for me I sped up to get around some parked cars to give the bacon-mobile some room, then as I checked my shoulder again they were beeping and waving at Justin so I was like shit they're pullin him.
Turns out they wanted to give us both a bollocking, but once we gave an ever so humble apology, we were let on our way fine free, and that my friends is why we didn't take first in the treasure-cat........its my story....and i'm sticking to it!

What are the rules for cars waiting in cycle lanes? Barrelling toward traffic lights at the bottom of a short hill, cycle lane starts on the left about 200 yards before the lights, minibus waiting in left lane but plenty of space on the left, so I go left. In front of the minibus is a car indicating left but not fully to the curb but completely in my way. Came to a clumsy stop and settled for some gesticulation, pointing at the cycling lane then at me, 'My space, mine all mine' in demento sign language, before throwing up my arm, demento sign language for 'twatbag'. Because I had made such a fuss I had to wait at the red light, which is annoying because it is a threeway filter into a one-way and if you come in from my direction you don't cross any lines of traffic, just skulk in on the left. Plus there are endless reds simply for the peds to cross

Depends on whether the lane is mandatory (solid line) or advisory (dashed line). Advisory lanes are rather meaningless and can be driven in at all times (the official wording is: "other vehicles must not use the cycle lane or park in it unless doing so is unavoidable", but that's not enforceable and largely ignored in practice). Mandatory lanes will usually have hours of operation noted on plates.

That's the problem tho: none of it gets enforces. If the lane is on a pavement peds ignore its existance and wander along it, if its on the road motorists ignore it and park on it. I particuarly hate cycle lanes that take you off the road and round the otuside of a rondabout, then make you give way at every exit. So I ignore the hell out of them and then you get abuse from motorists.

That's the problem tho: none of it gets enforces. If the lane is on a pavement peds ignore its existance and wander along it, if its on the road motorists ignore it and park on it. I particuarly hate cycle lanes that take you off the road and round the otuside of a rondabout, then make you give way at every exit. So I ignore the hell out of them and then you get abuse from motorists.

Remember that there is no obligation on you to use them--we have that freedom in this country. The recent case of the Telford One (Daniel Cadden if you want to Google) reinforced the point.

Lanes and tracks are low in the hierarchy of solutions. We generally aim for more ambitious improvements that have no chance of ending up here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm

both very impressive stories, i've always wanted to try my luck at running from police, but i think central london isn't the easyest area to do it, plus these days they just radio ahead and someone else picks you up

It was exhilarating at the time but I don't think that I would call sprinting off from an overloaded cop on a hardtail (I think a lot of Toronto cycle cops at least ride slicks) too impressive. Personally I'd love a go in central London. I reckon there's a lot of scope for escape, particularly around Soho and the West End. As soon as they've lost sight of you they've lost any credible identification.

• So officer, you were chasing an early thirties male on a fixed wheel bike wearing cycling shorts, a dark blue top and a grey helmet. Do you have a room big enough to do a line up of 1482 people? Perhaps you might have caught me if you cut down on the pies, got rid of the knobblies and didn't push off like an epileptic chicken.
  
  

Ooops

I still love the fact that some of the police bikes are made by Smith and Wesson:

On some of them it says 'Tactical' down the seat tube. Wheee ...

Oh. BTW.

@Olivier Schick and fudge - thanks for the long and detailed responses about the ASL ticket and stats, etc. Most appreciated.

Manners - FTW!