Just out of Curiousity... Carbon

I'll remember that when I hop my S-Works up a curb..

Personally I think that carbon fiber would be a great material for a road fixed frame (the bike nerd in me is already calculating how light you could make it).

I just dont know of many available (OK, Pearson cartouche), unless you use a pure track frame.

This seems abit like taking a porsche, adding floatation and a propeller, and wondering why its not the most kick ass boat on the water.

Erm.. they're not 'fragile' and the performance gains over a 30yo steel track bike are huge.. over a new alu or good steel bike, less so but noticeable.

I road a 50 year old steel road/path frame (complete with clearence for mudguards and pump pegs !) with airlite hubs and fiamme/mavic sprint rims during track league this year. Didn't notice any difference between it and a modern aluminuim track frame, and I don't think I'd notice the difference between it and a Carbon frame.

I'm sure Chris Hoy would flex my poor frame into oblivion, but for a 4th cat chipper like myself there's isn't much of a difference between frames.

hmm. Steel frame builder extolls the virtues of steel. Discourages use of Alu & carbon.

A bit like Chris King's rant on integrated headsets.

hmm. Steel frame builder extolls the virtues of steel. Discourages use of Alu & carbon.

A bit like Chris King's rant on integrated headsets.

That was in reference to Hippy's post (the difference between quote and reply being obvious to me now):

Read. Learn.
http://strongframes.com/material_tec...f60a0e26957677

Personally I think that carbon fiber would be a great material for a road fixed frame (the bike nerd in me is already calculating how light you could make it).

I just dont know of many available (OK, Pearson cartouche), unless you use a pure track frame.

This seems abit like taking a porsche, adding floation and a propeller, and wondering why its not the most kick ass boat on the water.

I road a 50 year old steel road/path frame (complete with clearence for mudguards and pump pegs !) with airlite hubs and fiamme/mavic sprint rims during track league this year. Didn't notice any difference between it and a modern aluminuim track frame, and I don't think I'd notice the difference between it and a Carbon frame.

I'm sure Chris Hoy would flex my poor frame into oblivion, but for a 4th cat chipper like myself there's isn't much of a difference between frames.

I too have never ridden carbon and have no idea what it's like but would like to say that it's absolutely a bad idea to make fixed frames out of carbon. I've also heard that all carbon fibre frame manufactures put babies on spikes.

HOWEVER, there are plenty of carbon track bikes around, and they are high performance tools for use in a velodrome, they are impractical for road use and the people who build these up with mountain bike handlebars and such are known as "Morons"

Impractical? People say that about steel track frames with tight clearances, lots of overlap and steep angles... But that doesn't seem to stop other people from riding them without problems..

Impractical? People say that about steel track frames with tight clearances, lots of overlap and steep angles... But that doesn't seem to stop other people from riding them despite problems..

fixed.

I recently had a ride on my second hand 17 yo steel road frame after a break of about 12 months, and was amazed how much slower it was than my carbon race bike. It felt spongy, heavy and flexy. Coming out at junctions and roundabouts I wasn't able to get close to the same acceleration/top speed. My fixed conversion feels faster.

Surely the whole point of technology and progress is making things better, steel is better than iron, alu is better than steel and carbon is better than alu. If it wasn't, top athletes and professional cyclists would still be riding around the velodrome on penny farthings.

Anyone who can't feel the benefitial differences between a carbon and steel bike must be completely crackers.

unobtanium FTW!!

Surely the whole point of technology and progress is making things better, steel is better than iron, alu is better than steel and carbon is better than alu. If it wasn't, top athletes and professional cyclists would still be riding around the velodrome on penny farthings.

Anyone who can't feel the benefitial differences between a carbon and steel bike must be completely crackers.

Obviously from a pure stiffness and competitive advantage POV your right, but there is a reason I can't abide riding Alu bikes on the road.. ie. that for daily riding they're not as comfortable as steel frames. So for this discussion of steel vs carbon for the road everyones opinion is valid in terms of comfot asthetic price and performance.

Problem with comparing carbon with steel in terms of toughness is that carbon composites are non uniform in their structure (nor is steel but let not delve into that kettle of fish). I would also assume carbon bikes vary a great deal in their design and how well their manufactured, composites have come on leaps and bounds of late... but i'd still have my money on steel in terms of strength for any odd impacts..

I have a 16ft carbon sea kayak. It is very light and very strong.

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Obviously from a pure stiffness and competitive advantage POV your right, but there is a reason I can't abide riding Alu bikes on the road.. ie. that for daily riding they're not as comfortable as steel frames. So for this discussion of steel vs carbon for the road everyones opinion is valid in terms of comfot asthetic price and performance.

A full suspension mountain bike would be more comfortable still and a car more comfortable than that...

Now your just being silly.

It's not comfortable riding a full sus mountain bike at 20mph on the road though is it?

No. I was just laboring a point and being a bit nobby .

The original question was about performance, carbon performs better than steel.

I ride both carbon racers and steel hack bikes/ mtbs. carbon is generally considered very strong, definately comparable to alu. or steel, hit a car at 25 on a carbon bike and ul see what happens often comes out ok :)

I hit a car at 20mph. I weigh 75 kg and my carbon forks and Hed wheel were totally unaffected. I broke seven bones though. The Renault Clio was written off.

your bones are old enough to be carbon fiddy

Carbon/Steel Naga

Agreed! I just wished they weighed as much.

No. I was just laboring a point and being a bit nobby .

The original question was about performance, carbon performs better than steel.

It wasn't. It was about why there was so few carbon track frames on the road. In my opinion :-

1. Price
   
2. Lugged steel looks better
   

I road a 50 year old steel road/path frame (complete with clearence for mudguards and pump pegs !) with airlite hubs and fiamme/mavic sprint rims during track league this year. Didn't notice any difference between it and a modern aluminuim track frame, and I don't think I'd notice the difference between it and a Carbon frame.
I'm sure Chris Hoy would flex my poor frame into oblivion, but for a 4th cat chipper like myself there's isn't much of a difference between frames.

I certainly notice the difference. I was talking more about the OP's thoughts about road use and thinking about weight and aerodynamics but if I compare my TI Raleigh and my Soma or my S-Works.. they're on different planets.

Still, a fast person will make a piece of shit go fast and a slow person will make a £10k bike trudge so it's all irrelevant anyway :)

hmm. Steel frame builder extolls the virtues of steel. Discourages use of Alu & carbon.
A bit like Chris King's rant on integrated headsets.

Where was he discouraging the use of other materials?
His comments seem pretty fair to me (and it was written over 10 years ago).

It also seems pretty clear he's not a steel-only builder..
"We built road bikes, mountain bikes, cross bikes, tandems, rigid, suspended, titanium, aluminum, steel and carbon. We did a bit of everything."
and, in fact, appear to have embraced carbon fibre..
http://www.ibiscycles.com/tech/

Ibis Carbon Fibre statement:
http://www.ibiscycles.com/tech/durability/

Carbon fiber has both phenomenal strength and superior fatigue resistance when compared to other commonly used frame materials. And as it is with other materials, a crash can wreak havoc on your nice carbon frame.
How much do you have to worry about the durability of carbon fiber after a crash? As you might imagine, depends on the crash.
First of all, carbon fiber mountain bikes are not new phenomena. Trek and Giant have had carbon fiber mountain bikes in the field for more than 5 years without a significant history of problems. BCD has been making their bomber downhill carbon frames since 1996.
If you crash any bike hard enough, you’re going to need to repair it or replace it. Before we talk about repairing carbon bikes though, we’ll tell you a little bit about what we do to the frames so that maybe you won’t need to get it repaired. On our bikes, the areas that are most prone to damage are reinforced accordingly. The last couple of layers are engineered to be very resistant to impact. Most of the layup of our carbon frames finds the carbon prepreg in 0º, 22.5º and 45º orientations. The 90º weave you often see as the top layer provides the best resistance to impact.
In all but the most heinous of hucks, it's the resin matrix that fails, not the carbon weave. So the less resin in your layup, the less likely you will see crack propagation. The newer lower resin composites used today are less likely to chip, crack or fail catastrophically. Reduce the resin required to 'wet-out' the matrix and you reduce the risk of failure. See our carbon tech piece for more info.
But let’s say you run out of talent in a big way, and crush some fiber along with your own bones. The good news is carbon can be repaired. You might not believe this, but often it is easier and less expensive to repair than Aluminum, Ti or Steel. An impact that severely dents an aluminum tube might need a tube replaced. Aluminum bikes are heat treated, so in addition removing and replacing the old tube (if it can be removed), you need to also heat treat, realign and repaint or reanodize the frame. None of this is necessary with a carbon frame.