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Ok i am going to be contreversial here and say that calling for a ban on HGV's of any sort is bull, and is probably going to result in any sort of campaign looking as though it is coming from pipe dreamers rather than realists. HGV's are the life blood of retail London.
Lorries dont kill people, badly trained driivers do, same as in a car, on a motorbike or on a bicycle, whats needed is better road education
As a former goods driver, i can tell you that any sort of spoke cadr saying Lorries Kill is going to do a lot more worse than good, it will antagonise the drivers more than anything else.
Half the problem with road safety campaigns is they always appear to come from the lunatic fringe of cyclists to the general public, and as such get dismissed as irelevant or to far fetched, and calling for a ban on HGV's is the same shit.
I still maintain that we should take steps to educate our community to better understand the risks of the road, rather than point the blame at others - too many cyclists put them selves in these positions without being aware of what kind of danger they are in - you should never ever move up the inside of a moving HGV or similar, you are playing with fire, getting that message across is a step in itself
We live in a city that is hopelessly outdated for all forms of transport, from pedestrians, to cyclists, to cars to HGV,s to public transport, everything is far from adequate, but this is because we live in a city that has grown and evolved over 2000 years, and was never designed to be traveled in as it is today.
All forms of transport need to work together, too often one policy is implemented to the benefit of one group of users that disadvantages another, for example the use of Motorbikes in Bus Lanes that has become a farce.
I think the spoke card idea is great, a great deal of good will exists on this forum to make things happen, and i feel like a dampner is being put on that now.
Bill, i know we have had words before, and i have the utmost respect for all you have done and your wealth of knowledge, and whilst i agree with the majority of what you have said, i have to disagree with your sentiments on the spoke card - as some of you know i build custom motorbikes in my spare time, and within that community we are very active at producing leaflets, flyers etc and distributing them round at events, meets, drinks etc - and guess what when you are talking to a fellow biker rather than a cop or public servant the message tends to get across, and is listened to and taken on board - the motorcycle community is very good at looking after itself, making sure that people who ride like twats know it, and helping those who need a hint or two.
I think a spreading of the word at ground level could do a world of good, and the spoke card initiative seems a great way of doing this.
im pretty sure that some cities in europe already have hgv free zones but i cant remember the exact details. plus it makes more sense for them to deliver at night because there is less traffic and some companies already do this.
im sure people would be up for doing some stencils, however i doubt it is a good idea to discuss this on the forum, not that anything will happen but maybe we should just pm about it, after all i do remember one forumer being a copper or something like that.
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I know that it wasn't intended as such, but the suicide zone version was particularly distasteful to me, as I know that none of the cyclists who have been killed by left-turning lorries intentionally put themselves in harm's way.
Sorry to oppose your viewpoint, BB, because I'm usually 100% behind your perspective and the actions that you take.
However, whilst the cyclists who were killed did not intentionally put themselves in harms way, their ignorance of their situation did.
I agree entirely that drivers of HGVs owe a duty of care to other road users, but at the end of the day we've all got to take care of ourselves and not rely on anyone else.
Whatever penalties are threatened upon drivers of HGVs, buses, cabs etc, it won't matter to these people as much as it will to us. When the shit hits the fan (and this will be the first moment at which this issue actually hits home for 99% of drivers), only then will those drivers actually give this situation any thought.
Achieving a sea change in driver attitudes must be seen as a long-term goal.
Educating individual cyclists to ensure their own safety must surely be a valid short-term goal.
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Here is the leaflet/flyer/whatever, beautifully designed by pipwish. the original text was largely drawn from Bill's posts on MT, with some edits for clarity by wools and me:
http://thebikeshow.net/images/lorry_leafletA5X2.pdf
(best for printing)Anyone with access to a xerox print off from the PDF and slice in two for two A5 size sheets. I'll print a bundle too.
Below is the jpg so you can see what it looks like.
Would be good to put a few things up at www.cyclesafelondon.com, even if just basics like some links to MovingTarget coverage of the issue, addresses of people to write to.
The more people that can come along to talk to participants at CM the better. the leaflet is really just the first step, the best way to get the message out is by talking.
Nice work everyone, let's just hope it's not too damp at CM tomorrow. It'll be my first CM in years, not always having seen eye-to-eye with the thing but tomorrow it's going to feel good.
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who is the admin for cyclesafelondon.com ?
If this note is going out tomorrow at CM, then maybe a good idea to put one or two things up there.Jack
I am.
But I'm very willing to open the doors and make lots of people editors so that multiple people can post stuff.
I'm thinking that aside from news, we should have rider down announcements, and also post reactions to what we're doing and any coverage.
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Sorry to oppose your viewpoint, BB, because I'm usually 100% behind your perspective and the actions that you take.
However, whilst the cyclists who were killed did not intentionally put themselves in harms way, their ignorance of their situation did.
I agree entirely that drivers of HGVs owe a duty of care to other road users, but at the end of the day we've all got to take care of ourselves and not rely on anyone else.
Whatever penalties are threatened upon drivers of HGVs, buses, cabs etc, it won't matter to these people as much as it will to us. When the shit hits the fan (and this will be the first moment at which this issue actually hits home for 99% of drivers), only then will those drivers actually give this situation any thought.
Achieving a sea change in driver attitudes must be seen as a long-term goal.
Educating individual cyclists to ensure their own safety must surely be a valid short-term goal.
Lorries dont kill people, badly trained driivers do, same as in a car, on a motorbike or on a bicycle, whats needed is better road education
As a former goods driver, i can tell you that any sort of spoke cadr saying Lorries Kill is going to do a lot more worse than good, it will antagonise the drivers more than anything else.
Half the problem with road safety campaigns is they always appear to come from the lunatic fringe of cyclists to the general public, and as such get dismissed as irelevant or to far fetched, and calling for a ban on HGV's is the same shit.
All forms of transport need to work together, too often one policy is implemented to the benefit of one group of users that disadvantages another, for example the use of Motorbikes in Bus Lanes that has become a farce.
Worse? Well, the rate at which London cyclists are being killed by LGVs is actually going up.
As you say, lorries don't kill people, negligent people kill people. So, yeah, let's get the operators to engage. Which the vast majority haven't up until now. Why haven't they? Maybe they don't give a shit.
Perhaps if a ban on LGVs is seriously discussed, they will start to give a shit. At the moment, the operators get to use this resource, ie the roads of London, and aren't paying the full cost. Who is paying for the ambulances to carry the dead and injured to hospital? Who paid for Effri's 24 days in hospital and 4 operations? Who is paying for the cops to spend half a day on the scene of collisions trying to disprove (in Effri's case) the blatant lies of the driver?
Not the f***ing operators.
I am not against trying to educate cyclists, but focussing on the left-turn thing doesn't give the whole picture.
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Anyone that's on here who is going to CM who wants to meet up - let me know. You can text me, my number is on the contact page of MT.
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The usual CM meeting place is the centre of the stone circle.
Shows you how often I have been in the last decade! Ok, well, see some of you there.
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just tried to catch up on the last 2 pages before leaving to work.
Yesterday I witnessed at a small junction in Balham (high road/Bedford Hill) 2 male cyclists who litterally dragged themselves along the left of a lorry that was at the red light in the left lane to go to the front. There are railings on the pavement.
If these guys could not see the danger, I don't think a card will make them change.
But education is good, a lot of people will benefit from the campaign. I would like to see more fun and positive messages though. Some people are really scared out there and death messages will put them completely off.
I agree with BB on a lot of points and I would like to see some changes in blaming the cyclist culture in accidents.
I'm going to CM tonight.
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I'm unable to attend CM this evening, but have printed a batch of the handouts and will be distributing them amongst the bikes in our well-subscribed bike shed here at work.
I've also asked my wife to give them to the cyclists at her office.
I expect we can get hundreds of these out to cycle-commuting colleagues today, even before the CM push.
Thanks to BikeShow Jack for setting a short-term deadline, and for the continuing intelligent debate/refining of the message & materials.
Could someone volunteer to paste the leaflet link on the other cycling forums? (suggest distribution at work/mention CM/etc)
I don't get much unbroken time on the internet in the morning :)
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I'll print a load of these off today and distribute. Oh and a short note:
Dear Mr Roadie on the Blue TT frame this morning on Kennington Road
There really was no need to undertake me whilst I was riding a foot and a half away from the curb in a bus lane, and then gesture to me that I should be riding closer to the curb.
As I said when I caught you at the lights, that really is the safest place to be. I'm sorry if it makes it 'harder for you to overtake me' but just because you've been riding like that 'for the past 25 years and have never had an accident' doesnt mean its right.
I'd really like to sit down and discuss this matter further but you seemed in a hurry to get away.
I was about to comment on how nice your bike was before you frankly disappointed me in a big way.Yours
Disappointed Charge Plug of Colliers Wood.
(sorry had to rant)
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i was shouted by two drivers today because i din't pass a red light {a 4x4 [harrow road turning into gospel oak] and a biiiiiig looong truck [lancaster road with ladboke road] }
amazingly enough the truck did it!both crossing have a time when the green man is there for all the roads.
WTF!!!!
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Sorry to piss on the parade but I think two separate, but similar, agendas have got muddied together here. Personally when confronted by the mass of copy on the new flyer I'm put off and would almost certainly not read and digest the entirety of it, I certainly wouldn't be writing to my local MP (how many people actually do this?!). However, I applaud those who do write and petition and the continued efforts to try and make our roads safer by everyone who's contributed in some way on this thread. As said earlier in this thread, one less RTA statistic can only be a good thing.
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Sorry to piss on the parade but I think two separate, but similar, agendas have got muddied together here.
Yeah, I think there are more than two! Simplification and directness take time to achieve. The text heavy flyer is out there in advance of something more catchy and clever I think.
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It's online too.
Whoops! Charlie's unrevised figure is out there...
oh well...
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CycleSafeLondon.com has the JPG of the flyer for download.
Much better to use the PDF, which can be downloaded from here and reuploaded to CycleSafeLondon.com
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About
Awareness Raising Spoke Cards Campaign Project?
Posted by
@BringMeMyFix
who is the admin for cyclesafelondon.com ?
If this note is going out tomorrow at CM, then maybe a good idea to put one or two things up there.
Jack