Anonymous Scientology Protest in London

If I talk to "God" I am devout.

If he talks back I am Schizophrenic.

Who needs an imaginary best friend to blame life on?

Toodle pip

This is an interesting article re: Dawkins et al.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,,2265446,00.html

Jesus, I'm never calling wheels a militant atheist ever again!

You are one, though.

:P

You shouldn't talk negatively of anything to that extent, especially considering you don't understand it (and if you talk of religion from a rational or logical point of view then you clearly don't). Why poke fun at someone's faith just because you don't have it? Fair enough if they wave it in your face, like an evangelist does, but that's no excuse to wave your atheism in everyone's face. Atheism is as much a belief as religion. And religion is not a cancer, and it does not deserve to be called one.

Love from asm, proud agnostic. (Agnosticism is also a belief by the way!) :)

asm Jesus, I'm never calling wheels a militant atheist ever again!

You are one, though.

:P

Well then I shall have to leave that point, if you feel you are talking to a militant I shall have to let you have your own definition of militancy.

asm You shouldn't talk negatively of anything to that extent,

Racism? Fascism? Misogyny? Misanthropy? Pedophilia? Dogma? Totalitarianism?

You shouldn't talk negatively of anything - are you sure about this - or are you suggesting it ok to talk negatively with regard the above list (and numerous other things) but employ special pleading for people's superstitious believes ?

What is this unexplained exemption from criticism that people seem to think religion needs ?

asm especially considering you don't understand it (and if you talk of religion from a rational or logical point of view then you clearly don't).

:) ha! :D - Wonderful ! It takes so little for the fallacies to come thick and fast when dealing with religion :D it is such a hackneyed stalwart of the religious apologist, when his argument finds itself on thin ground out comes the call that the opponent lacks the necessary qualifications to comprehend his point of view.

Of course this is little more than apologist nonsense in lieu of solid argument. If you cannot reason and rationally support your point, why not simply put your fingers in your ears and shout as loud as you can that your opponent 'doesn't understand what I understand.'.

Not very persuasive.

asm Why poke fun at someone's faith just because you don't have it?

Ignoring your straw man argument - hopefully I have come over as doing more than 'poking fun', hopefully I have been clear that I find religion contemptible.

Do you want me to list my reasons ? I am not sure I would have to time to list them all, nor you the time to read them. Where would I even start ? The public execution (by hanging) of homosexuals (not for any crime but for being homosexual) in Iran perhaps ?

Wheels and asm's day out at the races. ;P

asm Atheism is as much a belief as religion.

LOL ! at last, I was waiting for this nugget of clipped thinking, good grief it took it's time to turn up ! :D

Let me point out the obvious, atheism is the lack of a belief (specifically that there are any such things as gods and goddesses).

asm
And religion is not a cancer, and it does not deserve to be called one.

Fair enough, that's your view.

asm Love from asm, proud agnostic. (Agnosticism is also a belief by the way!) :)

Agnosticism is also not a belief, it is an admitted position of ignorance.

Can I ask you what exactly you are agnostic about ? For example are you agnostic about Zeus ?

I agree with wheels.

(Jesus, I can't believe I just wrote that)

wheels, if you keep attacking people, you are going to have less and less people to play with, mmkay?

asm, just ignore him.

lpg wheels, if you keep attacking people, you are going to have less and less people to play with, mmkay?

asm, just ignore him.

Lpg, regardless of your attempt to stifle debate - asm and myself have 'whispered' each other to establish that we are both fine with healthy, robust debate.

Thanks for you concerns anyhow. :)

I thought this thread was going quite well myself, nothing too personal, fairly well tempered and quite free from the usual calls to censor this kind of conversation from the adherents of religion.

wheels What is obvious is that this god character is an terrible old cunt

lpg Regardless of your oh-so-important views on religion, this is an very disrespectful thing to say, don't you think? - I wonder if you'd be so forthcoming in 'real life'.

Lpg, can I ask you, and forgive me the super obvious/rubbish example, if you met Adolf Hitler (and supposing there were no repercussions for doing this) would you call him a 'terrible old cunt' (or the insult of your choice) to his face, even if, in the presence of all his generals, personnel, his admiring followers and his wife this would be considered disrespectful ?

I don't like how you judge religion by the extreme minority of people who use it as an excuse for "racism, fascism, misogyny, misanthropy, pedophilia, dogma, totalitarianism".

It's ignorant.

It's downright childish to insinuate that I therefore think that these are good things.

I maintain that you don't understand religion.

Say someone brings up the subject at a dinner party - do you actually say this sort of stuff, or do you keep it to yourself?

wheels [quote]chris crash and im not just against religion, i hate all stupid people

:D

Best post of the thread !

One of my favourites :) nobody does full on Christianity like the Americans. :) - (this is from the American version of 'wife swap' and is the part where the wife (mad lady here) returns home to tell everyone what a great experience it was to live with a different family)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UPXGun5zI[/quote
]

omg that women is fucked up

sorry to bring this back from a few pages away

"astrology dont exists"
"the moon dont exists"
"i am the warrior"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAA .... bollox wet myself !

he mentions it prior to the burning and eating the bodies before attaching a top tube protector made out of 'special leather' ti his hip hop slave bike callously laughing to the haunting sound of his arrospok whistling like a banshee in the night.

probably.

my sentiments exactly asm.

asm I don't like how you judge religion by the extreme minority of people who use it as an excuse for "racism, fascism, misogyny, misanthropy, pedophilia, dogma, totalitarianism".

It's ignorant.

It's downright childish to insinuate that I therefore think that these are good things.

You misunderstand me.

Let me explain - you say that you shouldn't talk negatively of anything to that extent

I then asked you if you are sure this is a reasonable stance, for example should we not talk negatively of racism? Of fascism? and so on.

I have not said you think these are good things. I am using them as example of things that I (and hopefully you) think we can quite righty speak negatively about.

asm I maintain that you don't understand religion.

That's fine, I will take that as your opinion.

asm Say someone brings up the subject at a dinner party - do you actually say this sort of stuff, or do you keep it to yourself?

Like anyone, I tend to judge the situation mostly, religious people tend to be fairly thinned skinned with regard to this kind of debate, like I have said before, even cursory questioning of preposterous religious claims can often be met with outrage, but occasionally you find religious people who are intellectually honest enough to discuss their own religion in depth.

to be fair me and wheels actually share most of our opinions in common - believe it or not, i actually agree with him that setting gay people on fire isn't really fair on them. Also if a woman cheats on her husband, I think a divorce is probably more suitable than a beheading.

But, it isn't religion that makes people do that, it's the medieval justice system. Americans who insist that the devil is real, and that the moon doesn't exist, don't say things like that because they're religious, they say it because they're fucking stupid. Terrorists don't fly planes into the side of buildings because allah wanted them to, they do it because they're insane or brainwashed.

Yeah we should talk negatively about things that are actually bad. Religion gets blamed for a lot of things it shouldn't.

asm to be fair me and wheels actually share most of our opinions in common - believe it or not, i actually agree with him that setting gay people on fire isn't really fair on them. Also if a woman cheats on her husband, I think a divorce is probably more suitable than a beheading.

Indeed, I think we probably share a lot of common ground.

asm But, it isn't religion that makes people do that, it's the medieval justice system. Americans who insist that the devil is real, and that the moon doesn't exist, don't say things like that because they're religious, they say it because they're fucking stupid.

Being a non-Christain, what are you making this judgement on ? What leads you to say these devout Christians are wrong about their own religion and the matter of the fact is that you are right and they are simply idiots - now there is nothing to say you are not right, but I am curious as to how you are accomplishing this epistemological feat !?

asm Terrorists don't fly planes into the side of buildings because allah wanted them to, they do it because they're insane or brainwashed.

I take it from this that you have not read the Koran or the Hadith.

The same question again, as an non-believer and infidel, what are you using to make these judgments ? What is it you are using to pick out people from a religion you do not follow nor understand (I say that in regard to your earlier point, feel free to correct me if in fact you do think you have an understanding of Islam that I might lack) and say which are the real Muslims and which are, in your opinions, not Muslims ?

asm Yeah we should talk negatively about things that are actually bad. Religion gets blamed for a lot of things it shouldn't.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere ! :)

So we both share the view that it is reasonable to discuss 'bad' things, yes ?

Now if I can expand that point.

If these bad things appear within religion is it still ok to discuss them ?

Well, the fact that 99.999% of muslims don't fly planes into buildings is quite a big factor in that particular belief. However, i don;t know much about islam so maybe i'm wrong and 99.999% of muslims are just cowards and unable to carry out allah's holy writ?

The bible says that the devil is real, granted, but then again the bible says that women were made from one of my ribs, and that I was made from mud. An intelligent person realises fairly early on that the bible's stories are metaphors. They realise that the creation story shouldn't be taken as literal fact, but as a story with a moral behind it.

Which is, obviously, don't eat apples, and never ever listen to snakes.

asm Terrorists don't fly planes into the side of buildings because allah wanted them to, they do it because they're insane or brainwashed.

It saddens me sometimes, but people don't get it.
Its not insanity in many cases, but desperation.
When the Stern Gang and the Irgun invented 'terrorism', the West was happy enough to stand by idly and enjoy the fallout.
Religion doesn't factor. Go watch Paradise Now, and come back and argue with me.
Now- how do I put this without being arrested:
I am biased- as all this 'terrorism' talk directly affects me. However, it is an understandable position- If you have no weapons, and the world ignores the apartheid/ holocaust (yes I went there) in front of their eyes, due to falsely held apologetic idiotic views - then what the fuck do you do?

wheels What is obvious is that this god character is an terrible old cunt

lpg Regardless of your oh-so-important views on religion, this is an very disrespectful thing to say, don't you think? - I wonder if you'd be so forthcoming in 'real life'.

Lpg, can I ask you, and forgive me the super obvious/rubbish example, if you met Adolf Hitler (and supposing there were no repercussions for doing this) would you call him a 'terrible old cunt' (or the insult of your choice) to his face, even if, in the presence of all his generals, personnel, his admiring followers and his wife this would be considered disrespectful ?

I am truly enjoying this debate.
wheels and asm are like the two thought processes in my teenage head.

I wonder if i should say who wins......

eyebrows [quote]asm Terrorists don't fly planes into the side of buildings because allah wanted them to, they do it because they're insane or brainwashed.

It saddens me sometimes, but people don't get it.
Its not insanity in many cases, but desperation.
When the Stern Gang and the Irgun invented 'terrorism', the West was happy enough to stand by idly and enjoy the fallout.
Religion doesn't factor. Go watch Paradise Now, and come back and argue with me.
Now- how do I put this without being arrested:
I am biased- as all this 'terrorism' talk directly affects me. However, it is an understandable position- If you have no weapons, and the world ignores the apartheid/ holocaust (yes I went there) in front of their eyes, due to falsely held apologetic idiotic views - then what the fuck do you do?[/quote]

Its a really interesting point actually Henry.

I read about a new(ish) study into why people leave terrorist groups recently, it actually has more telling results as to why people join them in the first place than most other studies. People leave because they don't feel that the group is actually fighting for what their problems were when they joined.

Have you watched this is england? Nothing to do with terrorism, but its a perfect example of desperation leading to bad things. Everyone was angry, and the national front found a way to channel that anger at a scapegoat.

OK... I'm going to chime in (and probably get mercilessly ribbed for it).

I have no problem with anyone having faith. Faith, as mentioned above, has gotten a lot of people through some extremely tough times, and is to be applauded for doing so. For example, if a mother loses her children in a terrible accident, but gains some comfort from feeling that this is God's will and/or that the children are now happy in heaven, who am I - in fact, how dare I even try - to take that away from her? Why shouldn't she be able to draw that one comfort from such a terrible situation?

Alternatively, I do have my problems with religion. Again, as stated above, religion is used as an excuse for some absolutely horrific behaviour, and has been through history from the Mayans, the Incas, the Roman Empire, the Crusades, right up to 9/11 and beyond. It will continue to be used as justification for violence and bloodshed for the foreseeable future. However, religion isn't about God - religion is about what groups of men (all with different opinions) think God might be. The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by a group of men. Likewise the Qu'ran etc. etc.

Religion, by it's very nature, gives hope to the hopeless. 'It's ok that you're poor and downtrodden - it's all part of God's Plan' etc. etc. However, the hopeless are the best people to use to do the bidding of men. They're hopeless - what have they got to lose? Therefore, you convince these hopeless people that they should do whatever you tell them to and God will reward them and, lo and behold, they will do it, to give their life some meaning and direction. You convince the poor Palestinian kid that blowing up a bus will leave his mark on this world (and it will) and ease his passage into the next. Because he's been kept down all his life, based on his race and his - you guessed it - religion, he has nothing to lose and everything to gain (so it seems) by doing 'God's Work' and murdering a bunch of Israelis.

God didn't tell the 9/11 hijackers to do what they did. A man told them to, a man that claims to somehow be closer to God than they are. Religion is the most effective tool for keeping people in line - after all, who's scarier than God? It's the ultimate 'I'll tell your father' threat - do as I say, or God's going to punish you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that religion has very little to do with God and very much to do with Control and the will of men. The Church Of England, for example, was founded by Henry VIII purely so that he could divorce one of his wives, as the Catholic Church of the time did not allow divorce.

The Church Of England currently has as many as 70 million followers in over 161 countries worldwide. Not bad for what is essentially a legal tool.

I believe it was Wilfred Owen who, during the First World War, noted that the belt buckles of British soldiers carried the motto 'Dieu Et Mon Droit' - 'God And My Right' - and those of German soldiers claimed that 'Gott Mitt Uns' - 'God Is With Us'. So, either God was hedging His bets, or men were claiming God as an ally without thinking to check with Him if it was ok.

Therefore, in conclusion, have as much faith as you like, but be wary of religion and all those that claim to somehow be holier than you are - especially if they're trying to convince you that a somewhat dubious course of action is 'God's Will'.

And please don't try to convert me to your way of thinking - I don't necessarily expect you to agree with my beliefs and I won't vilify you if you don't - please afford me the same courtesy.

As the great Ned Flanders once eloquently put it 'I did everything it says in the Bible - even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!'.

Religion is a farce, in my opinion.

Turpe i think you're right to make a distinction between faith and religion.

Some very fair points made Turpe, no merciless ribbing from me.. except Henry VIII didn't break away from the Catholic Church purely to divorce his wife, there were many other reasons, (if i can remember my history class ...:/)

Bloody hell.

We all labour under belief systems. None of us scientifically proves every little thing that we take for granted in every day life. And even those of us who hold great store in the massively complex, carefully scrutinised and constantly contested body of knowledge referred to in the aggregate as 'science' know that scientific theories are only good until a better one comes along. Which is quite frequently. In the meantime, we use the current state of knowledge to guide us because we have nothing better to turn to.

Not all of us put so much stock in science. Also, some people might point out that science doesn't really give you much guidance as to how to live a happy, fulfilling life. Some might turn to philosophy to guidance, others turn to religion. To be honest some philosophers are as raving as some religious nuts, though few realise quite how much they have in common.

Religion that conflicts with science is generally accepted as being a bit silly, because science has a system that makes it rather more reliable. Conflicts between religion and philosophy are generally fair game.

I don't believe in god personally, but I don't particularly feel the need to impose my philosophical belief system upon others.*

Those who do feel the need to impose their philosophical beliefs upon others could fairly be described as 'militant'. Or 'proselytising', for that matter.

Just to be clear - 'right' and 'wrong' are philosophical concepts.

*edited to add - except as mediated through the political process. As in, I don't feel the need to impose it personally upon other people: I'm quite happy to participate in the messy compromise of political participation, which of course is all about compromising between competing visions of 'the good life'.