Lorries in London, it'd be alright if cyclists just saw their point of view.

Took me getting hit 2x in a month.

I sat down with myself and told the idiot to his face that he better start riding defensively lest he run out of skin to scrape, or of whatever little brain he had.

Seems to have worked. I assume drivers will fuck up, and try to keep an eye out for a quick escape route. I still go fast (for me), take the lane and ride assertively, but I am a lot less aggressive and a lot less injured. In the end, it is not about who is right but about who is alive.

There are two arguments being conflated here, one about blame, t'other about brains.

On the blame side - the guys in the 2-ton (and more) tanks are in charge of dangerous machinery and should bloody well make sure they don't squash anybody with it.

On the brains side - the guys in 2-ton (and more) tanks are bloody morons in charge of dangerous machinery and you'd be best advised to keep your wits about you, or they'll squash you.

I think that there needs to be a shift in the social dynamics of road use to address the fact that drivers seem to think that it's their god-given right to drive how they like, and that somehow cyclists are inferior road-users. I'm very enamoured of the Dutch experiment in removing road markings and forcing road users to interact properly, though I suspect that London in partic and the UK in general lacks the kind of solidarity needed for that system to work. We all got too 'beggar-thy-neighbour' in the 80s...

I think also cyclists need to take more responsiblity for themselves, not because they're culpable, but just to stay alive/unhurt. The same 'rights' style of argumentation that drivers are guilty of, cyclists are also guilty of - but your 'rights' don't mean squat when you're a smear on the side of the road.

(As to red lights - treat as a Give Way sign, I'd argue)

Hear hear alex - beat me to it!

They tried the Dutch "no rules" scheme a while back down Exhibition Road. Never went down there at the time, so I have no idea if it worked or not.

i like the dutch no rules idea - encourages considerate thinking and slower car speeds.

Lois einhorn? ...watch out, fellas.

Buffalo Bill [quote]TheDude

I have been called to the scenes of cycle vs car/lorry/bus/pedestrian incidents and the majority of the time the cyclist was at fault.

This is a quite extraordinary statement, which doesn't chime with the evidence that I have seen. Please elaborate.[/quote]

With the pedestrian collisions the main accidents happen when a cyclist is riding on the path and approaches the pedestrian from behind. They do not anticipate the pedestrian stopping or moving across the pavement. Most of these accidents have been minor lacerations but I have seen two more serious incidents where the pedestrian was knocked into a moving car (dislocated arm and broken ankle) and one where the pedestrian suffered a broken rib.

As for motor vehicle collisions I have seen two head on collisions due to the cyclist riding the wrong way up the road at night. The major causes of cycle vs motor vehicle related incidents is the running of the red light and people not using any form of light at night.

I have also seen alot of incidents when the non cyclist was at fault but just wanted to point out that some cyclists just lack basic common sense.

No, you said:

"I have been called to the scenes of cycle vs car/lorry/bus/pedestrian incidents and the majority of the time the cyclist was at fault."

So which one is it?

lpg
I've got no evidence but here's my 2 cents (pence?). By virtue of the fact that we don't need a licence, don't need a helmet, don't need training, and also that two wheels is inherently more dangerous than four,i think on average cyclists are probably equally culpable in most road accidents.

You said it, mate.

"I've got no evidence."

Yeah I suppose it is the cyclists fault every time someone with an IPOD steps from the curb, or those pesky bikers, always throwing themselves at car doors..

FWIW, here's what I thought of the event:

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article/lorry-blind-spot-demo-in-trafalgar-square

Buffalo Bill No, you said:

"I have been called to the scenes of cycle vs car/lorry/bus/pedestrian incidents and the majority of the time the cyclist was at fault."

So which one is it?

I gave you examples? From my experience cyclists have caused the majority of the accidents. But im not saying they are always to blame.

What is your stance? That cyclists are infallible?

Arrrgh fscking ipods! People walk around like zombies because of those bloody things. Bells are useless obviously, I'm tempted to get an air horn thing.

another thing, as sure as death and taxes, is it's always the cyclists fault/look out/call/whatever..

I don't know why, maybe it's because of taxes.

the lorry/bike problem:

adverts are made, flyers are handed out, the message is "Cyclists, be careful around lorries"

seen the TV ads about cars pulling out on motorbikes? of course you have..

the messaage is "Car drivers, look and look again for motorcyclists"
NOT "Motorcyclists, be careful when you see cars about to pull out from junctions"

So, why is it never "Drivers, watch for cycles" ?

That's what I want to know, why are people riding bikes more responsible for reducing accidents that they can only ever be a victim of?

Why doesn't the responsibilty lie with the truck drivers and motorists? after all, as many will tell you, THEY are the ones paying "road tax" and taking driving tests....

It's simple. wheather you are driving a 7 tonne truck, driving a car, riding a bike, walking across the road. Look where you are going and like the ad says THINK.

the funny thing is that the people who don't look where they are going, peds and drivers, are at the bottom of the list.

I know some cyclists ride like joey deacon on crack, but they're still looking where they're going

Bill, when you say 'tipper lorries', do you mean those ones that pick up skips or rubbish trucks?

Just curious, like.

edit - or those ones with the big hydraulic flat bed thing on?

To reiterate:
I blame the victim myself.

tippers are those bulk carriers, usually big fuck-off steel things full of earth/hardcore/shit

nasty even when empty

MA3K To reiterate:
I blame the victim myself.

yeah, me too, the cunts. being all dead like that..disgusting innit!

First of all, I don't say that cyclists were infallible. That's obviously nonsense. No group of road-users is inherently infallible.

Where I have seen the evidence in cyclist/hgv/lorry fatalities, which is 5 cases, the lorry driver was culpable. Either failure to observe or failure to signal.

There is big problem with HGV cyclist collisions. The problem is partly a lack of awareness on the part of cyclists that simply riding along the road, following marked cycle paths and obeying the law will not keep you safe. But also there is problem with a basic lack of safety equipment on lorries and training in its use. The guy who killed Cynthia Barlow's daughter said that not only did he not look in the proximity mirror before turning, but that he also had never used it, and NEVER been trained its correct use.

There's also a problem with cyclists and other road-users saying that any cyclist (whether they know the circumstances or not) killed by a left-turning lorry is at fault or worse. The most notable case was the LCC borough organiser who described Seb Lukomski as an idiot and the uk.rec.cycling contributor who anonymously described him as a 'fuck-wit'. Attitudes like this endorse the view that a cyclist who dies as the result of a collision with a left-turning lorry must automatically bear the blame.

Which is how you are coming off, to me. Maybe I am getting you wrong.

Chains clattering round, loads shifting, 'orrible.

h2o Bill, when you say 'tipper lorries', do you mean those ones that pick up skips or rubbish trucks?

Just curious, like.

edit - or those ones with the big hydraulic flat bed thing on?

The spoil lorries that we will see a lot more of in East London, carrying rubble to and from the Olympic site.

Pic here:

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article/cyclist-killed-this-morning-by-lorry-in-clerkenwell

Like I said before, there are two things here - one's the principle (which is that drivers are usually the ones to blame and that government policy is a bloody mess) and the other is the practice (which is to take care of yourself because drivers/govt are doing such a poor bloody job of it).

I dunno, I've seen a couple of nasty car accidents (not involving bikes) where someone did something because they had the right of way when it was obvious that someone else on the road was acting like a loon. I don't think it's wise to assume that principles are any kind of physical safeguard.

(response to rpm, btw)

Buffalo Bill [quote]h2o Bill, when you say 'tipper lorries', do you mean those ones that pick up skips or rubbish trucks?

Just curious, like.

edit - or those ones with the big hydraulic flat bed thing on?

The spoil lorries that we will see a lot more of in East London, carrying rubble to and from the Olympic site.

Pic here:

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article/cyclist-killed-this-morning-by-lorry-in-clerkenwell[/quote]

ah, right. 'orrible things.