Israel / Palestine

There was organised racist violence in Amsterdam from both sides

According to which news outlet? Because I just heard the Prime Minister refer to this as a pogrom "which reminded me of Oct 7th" live on the radio.

You think it's a normal response to send "rescue planes" and teams of medical professionals? I don't really understand how anyone can read these headlines and not just see the performative victimhood plain as day.

Easy now, no one's gonna accuse you. The irony is that you've pre-emptively victimised yourself lol.

The response can be separate to the initial events

https://news.sky.com/video/palestinian-flag-pulled-down-in-amsterdam-as-anti-arab-chants-are-heard-in-the-street-13250435
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/8/israeli-football-fans-clash-with-protesters-in-amsterdam

apparently the Israeli supporters were doing a gathering in the city centre, shouting "no more Palestinian children" and the like. During the match there was 2 mins silence for the victims of flooding in Spain and they were whistling through it. Couldn't have happened to nicer people.

Easy now, no one's gonna accuse you

That would be great. Its a shame the debate so often descends to that.

Jfc … imagine saying that, on this thread, without even a hint of self awareness or irony

My point isn't about media bias or otherwise, but reports of Israeli violence and provocations in Amsterdam are widespread. I didn't mention the rescue planes, but as I predicted you're assuming what I think.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/8/israeli-football-fans-clash-with-protesters-in-amsterdam

also

"Earlier, footage shared on social media showed Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters tearing down Palestinian flags in central Amsterdam.

Anti-Arab chants could also be heard as large crowds of the Israeli fans shouted: "Let the IDF win, and (expletive) the Arabs," as they were escorted by police to the stadium."

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-says-it-will-deploy-rescue-mission-after-violent-incident-targeting-israeli-citizens-in-amsterdam-13250370

And it's all over twitter

https://x.com/search?q=amsterdam&src=typed_query

Wish we could all stop using that outhouse fire of a platform.

but as I predicted you're assuming what I think.

My friend, you just scatter gunned “get outside your bubble” in thread. Don’t talk to me about presumption

Was quoting a news report that made the claim, hence adding allegedly.

Agree with you, about the normal response being turned in to performative victimhood.

Don't understand your point, initial events were by the Israelis.

#wouldrep

/* 'antisemitic'

wink wink

The attacks were 100% antisemitic. Organised attacks on people on the basis of their race. The Israeli attacks on Muslims were equally bad. No presumption needed to understand your post.

Hardly anything anti-semitic about responding to violence initiated against you (pulling down of flags etc). I'm sure there were racist elements, but this was anti-Zionist primarily and recipricol - if we take the Amsterdam mayor's words.

Also, re: semitism, let's not forget that Arabs/Palestinians are more Semitic (linguistically and genetically) than Aahkenazis and the other groups who cry anti-semitism at every turn.

Also, re: semitism, let's not forget that Arabs/Palestinians are more Semitic (linguistically and genetically) than Aahkenazis and the other groups who cry anti-semitism at every turn.

It is one of the tragedies of the conflict that the two sides are ethnically similar and yet their hatred is based on ethnicity. The attacks were the definition of racism, based where people had come from. An attack can be racist even if you are wrong about the race of the victim, for e.g calling a Moroccan a Hamas supporter, or calling a Ukranian a Jew, both of which happened during the violence in Amsterdam.

Racist Israelis use Hamas as an excuse to attack all supporters of Palestine and all people from arab countries, whom they hate regardless of what Hamas does. And there are people who use the actions of the Israeli state as an excuse because they hate anyone Jewish or from Israel because of who they are. Both can be true without diminishing the other, in fact they are co-dependant.

Absolutely not. Yes there were presence of racist elements, but attacks were mostly in retaliation and in defense of person and property.

One group are literally and constantly calling for the death of Arabs, children and thier schools. The other aren't saying anything nearly as horrific (theirs was a protest against an Israeli team being allowed to compete), but are defending against the cross of football hooligans and an utterly vile and racist ideology (Zionism) that's being manifested. It's really not that hard.

This whole time, you've tried to frame things as though both parties are equally too blame, when clearly this is not the case. As always, it's been disproportionately Zionist aggression and hate; the ideology had bred nothing but that since it's inception.

And not quite, the modern population of Israel are mostly European and fairly distantly related to the natives of the Levant.

And no, the modern population of Israel are mostly European and quite distantly related to the natives of the Levant.

The point about ethnicity is that both sides claim the land is rightfully theirs and the other side are invaders, while ethnically all the peoples who originally lived there were the same, whatever their religion. The largest Jewish ethnic group in Israel, about 40% to 45% of the country’s total population, is called Mizrahi, which means “Eastern” in Hebrew. Mizrahi Jews’ ancestors hailed from Jewish communities in the Middle East, including Israel itself. Of course nobody's ethnicity gives a person more right to live somewhere than anybody else, my point is that in this conflict "ethnicity" as a reason to hate the other side is largely a social construct.

On equality of blame: hate requires hate to perpetuate. Ascribing blame to one side only never de-escalates, and won't help resolve the spilling over of violence into cities hundreds of miles away from the conflict.

The Mayor of Amsterdam has said that organised gangs were searching out Israelis and attacking them, quite separately from the violence and protests near the stadium.

No. From what I’ve seen Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were attacked because of their Israeli racist hooligans who showed up to cause trouble (and got shown up instead.)

Their jewishness is incidental to their cuntiness.

You're saying this, when most Western media outlets I've checked have ascribed the blame in a one-sided fashion as if the hooligans were the victims. By 'balancing' things, one takes the lazy approach; you don't address the root of the problem while others get unfairly blamed or portrayed for doing what's within their rights (protesting, self-defence etc). You're also grossly exaggerating the response and blanketing a whole group of people with the actions or speech of a few. So to stay clear of prejudice by taking a neutral stance or equal-blame approach, one falls into it anyway. I'm sure me and my fellow coloured-comrades here know exactly how that feels, and more broadly - anyone with sense can see through this shit with ease (this is a general comment not directed towards you).

I won't continue much more on ethnicity, but Mizrahi is a very broad term that isn't limited to Middle Eastern and North African populations; the point was the majority of Israel's population is still European or foreign as significant numbers carry genetic markers (e.g. their haplogroups) quite unrelated to populations of the region they've invaded. Much of the Jewish/Palestinian population converted to Christianity and later Islam -they didn't go anywhere and are now being exterminated and ethnically cleansed en masse.

most Western media outlets I've checked have ascribed the blame in a one-sided fashion

Very true, never disputed this. All I've shown is that reports of Israeli violence in Amsterdam is easy to find if you look for it.

So to stay clear of prejudice by taking a neutral stance or equal-blame approach, one falls into it anyway.

Good point. Regardless of actual blame for the violence, there are extremely biased narratives from both sides as this is an info war as much as a real one, its incredibly difficult to navigate and separate facts from noise.

Much of the Jewish/Palestinian population converted to Christianity and later Islam -they didn't go anywhere and are now being exterminated and ethnically cleansed

My point is exactly this: the people the Israeli state are trying to exterminate are descendants of Jews. Many people on opposite sides share the same heritage. Attempts to define exactly what percentages of the population this applies to will inevitably vary, because all populations mix and these distinctions are always distorted and exaggerated by racists.

Acknowledged. 👍🏽

Just to provide a little taste of the sort of radicalism, racism and violence in Israeli football, this is a fun little expose on state sanctioned Beitar Jerusalem FC from a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

The relevance to this conversation being ...

Reports by the New Israel Fund have found Maccabi Tel Aviv as having the second-most racist fans in Israel, behind Beitar Jerusalem.

During the 2020–2021 protests against Benjamin Netanyahu, Maccabi fans attacked protestors with batons and broken bottles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabi_Tel_Aviv_F.C.

If the fans are that racist, why are those teams allowed to participate in European leagues?

Well, there's a thread for that!

https://x.com/MouinRabbani/status/1855427545262399585