The fall of the Tory party

@Kimmo - what is your line of work? Where do you live? I'm guessing you don't have much "free" time if you have a kid.

to have a platform, in the IT sense among others.

Could you find an avenue supporting/ utilising Rise Up?

advice as you're offering there is an order of magnitude less drastic than the situation demands

According to whom? You? Lots of small changes end up up changing a lot. No one truly knows the tipping point, we have an amazing capacity for survival and were not going to start living a pré industrial life in order to reverse the effect of climate change. I'm all for some 'outside the box' thinking but there comes a point where you have to get real and work within the confines of reality.

For what it's worth, I really appreciate Kimmo taking the time and effort to very eloquently outline his thoughts here.

A lot of very interesting ideas, some of them uncomfortable to hear, some of them (but not many) I disagree with, but overall incredibly vital to hear. Thanks mate!

Most of us tend to agree with most of what you’ve said here.

That's what I assumed.

It's a reasonable assumption.

What I don't understand is getting nothing but pushback.

You're showing people nothing but contempt. You seem to start from the assumption that anybody discussing issues in terms anything less than your absolutist ones is being a "polyanna". The idea that they may share many of your concerns, but just a) be less absolute in their certainty, b) more practically concerned at that particular moment with things where they do have some confidence in their knowledge, and c) not "pretending nothing is wrong" while doing that, seems either not to occur or be something you despise. In fact, you've spend the last page doubling down on how much you despise it.

I'd have thought finding a few like-minded folks to bounce ideas around with would be a start.

Derisively derailing every non-trivial discussion isn't achieving that.

Tbh it coold my brain when folks locally who describe themselves as 'climate crisis aware' (or similar) jet off around the world on unnecessary trips.

Low impact not no impact, but pledges and action like flightfree.co.uk are a huge step towards that for those who currently fly.

@kimmo I agree with some of your diagnosis, but I think what is rubbing people up the wrong way is the messianic main character energy you are bringing to it.

Just when the planet needed him most, when people had lost all hope, a neurodiverse hero succeeded against all the odds...

Yeah, it's a bit Hollywood.

As hoefla has gently pointed out, there are many activists, academics, people in the third sector, and even people in business and government, who are thinking about these issues in very sophisticated ways to drive change. Admittedly they are not having the success we would like to see.

My two simple thoughts are these.

1). Democratic action is still the best hope. But we need our democracies to be reformed, with our political parties freed from funding / lobbying from special interest. This is the biggest and first task and there is no guarantee of success. A good strategy for climate activists would be to infiltrate all parties, rather than concentrating on a single party as a vehicle.

2). I'm sure there is a whole academic literature I am ignorant of, and probably even policy that has been deployed in this space, but I wonder how much could be achieved by incentivising behaviour change. Can government pay people not to take foreign holidays? Could people be granted ESG invested bonds, for reducing their meat and diary intake? Could they get a favourable tax rate if they stop using cars?

A positive thought is that you can change the culture and behaviour more quickly than ever through the media available to us. I trust climate activists are applying Gramsci to Instagram, Facebook and tik-tok.

Can we subvert the cultural norms of high-status chimp behaviour (private jets, selfies in infinity pools, Mercedes G-Wagons, etc)? For a practical taster in the difficulties of this, see if you can subvert the car appreciation thread on our very own forum.

This may not be a popular view. I believe;

that deep within the Human Psyche is the idea that THE END IS NIGH.

This idea that we are standing on the brink of the end has been with us, forever!

There are many examples of it through out history in many diffrent socities, I grew up with the Cold War, Nuclear Obliteration, CND Marches an all that, throw in the odd Pandemic, Population explosion or whatever.

And Yes, yes I know this one, the one right now is the real one, the right one, the one that is going to end it all for us, usually man made btw. Science or someting else tells us so, so it must be true. just like all of the others were true once upon a time.

My unpopular prediction; your Great Grandchildren with die in their beds at the end of a long life. We will be well forgot by then, having died old in our beds long ago.

Please note, this isn't me saying do nothing, many of the problems are real and need addressing urgently. What I am saying is, it's not the end of the world. NEVER HAS BEEN!

Feel free to disagree, I have no expectation or wish to change anyones mind. I wish you all well!

what is your line of work?

I believe they're a bike mechanic, and with a more positive outlook on life than most of them

what is your line of work? Where do you live?

I used to be a bike mechanic, but that was close to ten years ago now. Spent a few years since as a hydraulic service tech, and now I'm looking after a warehouse. I'm in Melbourne, Oz.

And yeah, not much free time these days, most of my posting has to happen while pooping.

Could you find an avenue supporting/ utilising Rise Up?

Hey, this is the sort of business I'm talking about. Right on, thanks for the link!

For what it's worth, I really appreciate Kimmo taking the time and effort to very eloquently outline his thoughts here.

A lot of very interesting ideas, some of them uncomfortable to hear, some of them (but not many) I disagree with, but overall incredibly vital to hear. Thanks mate!

/ exploding fist bump

Cheers dude!

You're showing people nothing but contempt. You seem to start from the assumption that anybody discussing issues in terms anything less than your absolutist ones is being a "polyanna".

That's a bit adversarial, innit? I have contempt for the notion that a bit of tinkering around the edges of capitalism can solve our long list of vast problems. I'm pretty sure it doesn't take a genius to realise there's not much road left for us unless we can leave money behind; it just takes some general knowledge and enough daring to think it.

I guess it also takes a fair amount of daring to face the reality of our situation (because it's an obvious hazard to one's mental health), and to my mind, incrementalism betrays a point of view facing away from the awful truth, which demands a sharp discontinuity.

I've thought long and hard about whether there could be a halfway feasible path to such a thing, and I think maybe I've glimpsed the shape of it. We don't try to change a system geared almost entirely to supporting an unaccountable elite, we ignore it as much as we can, and build a new one inside it which has the vast structural advantage of actually trying to maximise human potential instead of minimising it.

Is the concept of the social contract too quaint to invoke? If not, that could be a pretty good hook. It's been thoroughly reneged on, if it was ever more than fictional window dressing. Consent of the governed revoked.

Just when the planet needed him most, when people had lost all hope, a neurodiverse hero succeeded against all the odds...

I'm just looking for some light at the end of tunnel here. Nobody seems to be pointing the way, so I've picked up a shovel. Cynically pooh-poohing; well, I'll leave calculating the worth of that as an exercise for the reader.

I've picked up a shovel.

I think @hoefla can claim to have picked up a shovel, I really don't think you can. Did you even read her account of both working hard on a cause and wondering how much that effort counts, and how much else she might be doing? I know for a fact there's a fair number of people on here with that as a dilemma they'll always face. But you had a revelation and now you're holding a shovel. Big man, so you are.

I've spent my entire adult life either working for voluntary organisations or volunteering for them. Opinionated twats who think it didn't contribute, when all their contribution has ever been is feeling virtuous, are the bane of my life.

I spent some time in health/disability organisations. There's a whole range of issues to address there, some big, some small. Sometimes I was active in the politics of it, and sometimes I was holding somebody over a toilet so they could relieve themselves and helping them wipe their arse afterwards. Did I get the balance right? I mean, I was just there with the flannel, but you picked up a shovel.

Most of my free time these days goes to a charity that helps homeless/unemployed people prepare for job interviews. Clearly, according to you, what I should be doing is telling the founders that they're just slapping a sticking plaster on the problem. I mean, I know it is, and obviously I could do better for them, their clients and everyone by telling them how useless that is. That would be so much more useful than, say, the time I was dealing with an old fella from Mali, who had come here with his orphaned granddaughter and was trying to support her on the job he'd been given watching security cameras for pennies, at a location the other side of London so that he had a three hour commute either way and barely had time to help his granddaughter on the pennies he had left after paying his fare. All I did was talk to him, find out he'd been a museum curator before he had to leave the country, and help him find a teacher's assistant job close to where he and his granddaughter lived - which still fell far short of the work he was capable of, but was at least something better. I hope some of the political/social campainging I get involved in might help with the deeper problems, and I'll go to my grave wondering how good or bad those choices were. But you picked up a shovel. I should too, and smack the founders in the face with it. Obviously they never think about these issues, or they wouldn't be wasting their time just helping people.

I tend to assume that people on here often face the same thoughts, and themselves wonder how much they help and what they might do better with their lives, and so I don't insult them by telling them in every conversation how tedious and small minded their concerns are. Clearly I was wrong, and I should be picking up that virtuous shovel and hitting them over the head with it. Magical digital shovels never get dirty.

If there's a path from the bad place we're in to a better one, a lot of the work to get there will be done by people shovelling shit, not keyboard warriors.

Clearly I've offended you. Tempting as it may be to engage in keyboard combat, I'm not going to respond in kind to your lashing out, because I don't see any sport in circular firing squads.

When I look around, I see a minority of switched on, thoroughly decent folks busting a gut to make a difference, and I weep for their ROI. A lifetime's hard graft can be summarily erased at the whim of some scumbag in a boardroom.

I want to find a way to change that equation. I want to see a platform for solidarity; a movement dedicated to making the noise of decency in the signal of colonialism into a signal which folks can tune into.

Seriously, start a thread. Make that space and invite people in. There's even a long-standing tradition here of pointing people at the thread where people care about a subject that's derailing the one you're in. That has to be better than just telling people in all the other threads how facile they are.

Seriously, start a thread. Make that space and invite people in.

This has way more value than your earlier rant. There is maybe an argument for not taking the discussion into a separate space though, as it removes it from the eyes of everyone else creating another echo chamber?

@hoefla wrote

I just thought - if we succeeded, we wouldn't need to exist. These are not successes.

I left the (sustainable transport) charity sector with this feeling. I asked regularly what the end game was, "we keep going" was the reply. My vision was that much of that charities work should be embedded in government as a basic essential provision of living in this country, how we choose to travel and that there should be an x year plan to pretty much not exist if that outcome could be prioritised and be met by then.

My colleagues there did amazing work and I wouldn't want to see them not working on this, just also that there shouldn't need tk be chuggers interrupting my bike ride asking me to contribute a frw quid to the cause, adequate funding should come via .gov, now via Active Travel England

I appreciate it is a single example and overall things are way more complex than that though, but on the face of it the "many things via charity" model of this country is a sign of government and spending/tax failings to me.

@kimmo I may be wrong, it sounds like you're externalising your many thoughts around this to make more sense of them & to find a way to direct your energy?

I want to see a platform for solidarity; a movement dedicated to making the noise of decency in the signal of colonialism into a signal which folks can tune into.

This is huge outcome. Helping build on what is already there I think is best, else a version this scenario happens:

I'm not necessarily right about any of this though.

You have local elections this week right? If it's not too late, speak to your family, friends, co-workers, kid's friends parents. Write to your candidates. I know nothing about the state of local politics in Australia but overall political change is the big impact.

Join, even to get the updates - you might not have time to volunteer or contribute regularly but occasional is better than nothing:
https://ausrebellion.earth/ - there will be local groups, cycling groups, family groups etc within XR you can join too

For something more hands-on - https://transitionaustralia.net/ - find your local group.

My vision was that much of that charities work should be embedded in government as a basic essential provision of living in this country

I know people are often wary of the big charities, but internationally this is often what they do - establish a proof of concept, loby government to deliver it at scale.

One of the problems that you face with bringing everything into the State is that sometimes costs increase and delivery slows. Obviously sometimes you have the exact opposite given the economies of scale. I guess it's knowing where the balance is.

There is maybe an argument for not taking the discussion into a separate space though, as it removes it from the eyes of everyone else creating another echo chamber?

So can we start another thread to talk about the fall of the Tory Party?

Much agreement Mashton. I've enjoyed the often detailed and lively discussions over the past few pages. However, I'll take any positives I can at the moment. The possibility of a Tory party on its death bed is one I'll celebrate.

for those who would like to continue a respectful discussion on the fate of our civilisation and arguments related to this, i have created a dedicated thread here:

https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/400279/

I'm only disappointed you didn't call it "Every cunt who wants to change the world". Checks notes oh, that's not quite how that song was titled. Still.

noted for use in the inevitable future evolution of the thread :)