Home DIY

At the risk of flogging a dead horse

How people waste time washing rollers and brushes is beyond me. In the bin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp3wxgje5pwo

Burning rubbish now UK’s dirtiest form of power

I found this out from out local council. So much refuse that was being recycled previously is now being burnt for “renewable” energy

I feel like there's going to be some good party-wall and permitted development knowledge on this forum. I want to ask about what our neighbours have done to our roof, and whether it's legal, and whether I'm being petty or justified in making a complaint. Is this the right place do you think?

I like our neighbours and want to be friends with them. But I'm not happy about their extension.

Pics or gtfo

Exactly the encouragement I needed. I'll just tell the story:

Our neighbours have built a loft extension. We are in Lewisham. The extension should be under permitted development, and they did the right thing and submitted plans to Lewisham and obtained a Permitted Develoment Certificate before commencing the work.

The plans show a 300mm gap between the centre line of our party wall and the external face of the dormer. As shown in the attached excerpt. I like this 300mm gap. It means we can have a dormer with a 300mm gap too, and both external faces can have work completed in the future.

We signed a party wall agreement, and we insisted they engage a surveyor to check before and after the work to mediate. This was mainly because we have just plastered the wall and ceiling where they were installing 6x steels in the party wall for the new floor, and we didn't want to have to fill loads of cracks at our own expense immediately after decorating.

They have now built the dormer, and they have accidentally/deliberately built the external face right up to the centre line. (The roof may or may not overhang a few mm.) If the roof does not over hang, I believe this is still covered under permitted development, which I hate, but cannot complain about.

However they also took up tiles on our roof and flashed around our chimney. Very clearly on our side of the roof. They did not have permission to do this, and I don't think it should be covered under the party wall agreement.

Is there any way to complain about this? Am I being petty? As I say, I do like these people. What will I do if the flashing round the chimney starts leaking in a year or two?

2 Attachments

The drawing excerpt is not particularly clear; can you post the whole thing? The wording around the 300mm setback is pretty unambiguous, for sure.

Have you spoken to the neighbours and their builders about this? That would be my first port of call. The neighbours themselves may not even be aware that the builders have done this.

It is a bit of a pisstake though, I would be miffed.

Happily, it is in the public domain on the planning website, so see here attached.

I am planning on opening a dialogue about it. It's filling me with anxiety though, so I want to be loaded with all the options.

2 Attachments

• Roof Plan.pdf
• Loft Plan.pdf

You're within your rights to grass your neighbours up to the council planners, as they've deviated from the plans against which their PD Certificate was granted. But this would only serve to destroy your relationship with them, and unlikely to achieve any change as what they've built does seem to still fall within PD.

Also, unless you've given explicit consent for modification of your property as part of your party wall agreement, then they've fallen foul of that as well. Depending on how your chat with the neighbour goes, I'd suggest getting a surveyor out at their expense to assess the situation.

It looks to me like a classic builders' mistake. Did the architect (assuming there was one--yes, there was, I've just spotted the name of the firm) do proper site supervision? Undoubtedly not intentional, and a cock-up, and you're right to be concerned. Ironically, they have themselves provided the evidence by applying for a Lawful Development Certificate. It's a difficult conversation to have, to be sure, but ultimately it'll be down to their architects and builders to put right.

Our neighbours did exactly this with their dormer this in Catford (but without the PWA and got the steels in before I realised what was going on, LOL!). Lewisham Council said enforcement was a civil matter and left me to it. I was unimpressed.

According to those drawings the boundary line is the face of the chimney stack on your side, and the stack is entirely within their demise. They’ve built what was drawn. Whether the boundary line on the drawing is right is the question.

Does mean they’ve made themselves 100% responsible for that stack.

Lewisham Council said enforcement was a civil matter and left me to it.

Do they expect you to go up there with a crowbar and a spiderman outfit?

I don't think that's the case; the other half of the chimney stack just isn't drawn.

Do you think so? I’m not sure, diagram has one row of chimneys within their boundary, photo shows two. Unclear.

Whoever drew that seems to think the chimney is entirely on your neighbours' side of the property boundary.

Oh yeah true. I’m amazed there aren’t more boundary disputes given the official records are usually hand drawn felt tip pen on an ancient multiple-photocopied Victorian plan.

Yes, ectoplasmosis is right. The drawings are fine and show the 30cm gap Psy describes.

Catford

Yes, but you have to assume that honour's OK in Psy's area.

What does section A-A show?

Thank you all for your scrutiny. As @Cupcakes has pointed out to me privately, the drawings are sloppy, but under scrutiny; I don't think they are ambiguous on this issue.

I think I will broach the conversation suggesting contractor error. We do have a party wall surveyor appointed prior who might be able to help too. So I'll contact him.

@6pt Yeah, I've contacted Lewisham to ask about enforcement procedure. Because the website says they just won't for permitted development issues. Seems pointless to get a certificate from them.

Any top tips for removing the paint and prepping these for a runner (bet good money someone on here has done it)

Not sure if I'll repeat the treads or wax them (will depend on how good they look I suppose) but want to paint the risers and go back to a runner.

Thinking about it it's probably a summer job as I assume it will need paint stripper and I assume that stinks

1 Attachment

I'd leave it if i were you.
You're losing nothing here other than potentially any friendship between you and your neighbour.
If you build a dormer in the future you can join onto theirs directly and both of you will enjoy the benefit of that.
Provided their work is done to a high standard (the step flashing suggests that their lead man is at least competent) you have lost nothing, and they have taken nothing from you. You will gain nothing from pursuing it.
Any gap between is a stupid way to construct a dormer.
(edit: the drawings show the neighbour building up to the centre line of the party wall, which is generally assumed to be the centre line of the chimney stack; the 300mm is the distance between your edge of the stack and the centre line of the stack, they appear to have built as per the drawings)
I would consider very seriously if this is a road you want to go down.

To add; i have constructed dormers at (for example) no.17, and no.19 have done what you're suggesting you may do.
Then some time later, when no.19 wanted a dormer, n0.17 had an awful lot of fun at no.19's (considerable) expense.
Tread carefully.

I think you’ll be onto plums here personally, as long as the work is done right and looking at the lead work they have done a decent job working it into the chimney , if it’s not actually caused any issues (leaks etc), I think you’ll only give yourself a headache and it will sour your relationship with the neighbour.

Also look on the bright side if you do the same you’ll be essentially able to work off there’s so I’d say a bit of come and go in this situation!

What outcome do you want?
The current dormer wall to be knocked down and rebuilt?
Cash?
An inspection of the work on your side and a guarantee that if it fails you won't be liable for putting it right?
An apology?

What you want guides what approach you need to take.

Realistically though they could have got permission to build it to the party wall, as they have, so it's unlikely that anything is going to change about that.

Work on your side without permission is obviously a different matter but what do you want to resolve that beyond making good?