That Starmer fella...

Ah yeah, that makes more sense why it’s specifically about work, although still the positive framing flies over their heads. “This is a life-changing drug that potentially has wider positive effects for the economy too”

Didn’t this story originate as an opinion piece written by Streeting in the Telegraph and then was picked up by the BBC and others? I’m not sure if that was intentional, but I imagine not.

Pre-election, people in this thread argued that tailoring messages to different audiences was a good thing, but this is a consequence of that. Sometimes the messaging reaches a wider audience and you look a bit Tory.

Pre-election, people in this thread argued that tailoring messages to different audiences was a good thing, but this is a consequence of that. Sometimes the messaging reaches a wider audience and you look a bit Tory.

To be fair, I think a lot of the arguments were about not having a message was brilliant messaging. 100+ days later it looks like, maybe, they just didn't have any real ideas to message about.

Kier and Elton

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kelton

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it's consistent from the view point that streeting is a parternalistic person. the what and why is window dressing to him ultimately believing people do not know what's best for them (the state/capital) and it should be chosen for them. it's why the messaging is so focused on punishing poors (as liz kendall is atm). it's an inherently protestant, misanthropic position.

it doesn't suprise me at all that someone who operates on this principle would be on the back foot of progressive thought.

Looks like Big Trevor Cleaver

Tbf this approach is fundamental to the left.

You can't be a libertarian who believes in centralised and collective decision making.

This is one of the deeply problematic parts of the left, but I wouldn't say it's fundamental.

There's a whole load of anarcho-socialist thought around co-operatives, mutuals, and economic democracy, not just the obvious socially liberal views in today's left-wing.

All the paternalistic dictatorship of the proletariat stuff really needs to be left behind in the dustbin of history, and the left needs to revisit the solid arguments about human freedom and flourishing, over and above economic freedom, otherwise we're left with the moral void we're living through now.

believes in centralised and collective decision making

(Collective, yes, centralised 'paternalism' not so much — you don't need to believe in statism to be a socialist)

I double fucking dare you to do a brown skin version.

Then go fuck yourself.

But how do you decentralise paternalism?

You don't! Parenthood has modernised in recent generations, states can do much the same.

So you are pro centralised paternalism?

Joking aside, I think there is always a tension when you're asking the state to do things.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98y09n8201o

Liz Kendall being a twat (as referenced up thread by @Maj). What a suprise.

No, not at all. In general I believe in self-management, and so am in favour of expanding democratic processes to the economic sphere.

There are multiple levels of complexity at which democratic involvement is useful, states are the obvious solution to high-level problems (national infrastructure, natural monopolies, law, money, etc), and other issues should be decentralised somewhat, all the way down to your work/family/self. To what degree depends on the problem.

Joking aside, I think there is always a tension when you're asking the state to do things.

100%. I think it's a really useful tension though!

I see the Labour right are having another 'who's the most loathsome goblin' competition

She indicated some people will lose their benefits, saying the "benefit system can have a real impact on whether you incentivise or disincentivise work".

Okay, then make work better, make sure the incentives are aligned at the threshold between benefits and work by either tapering, or applying benefits more universally. Raise the minimum wage for Christ's sake.

Always punching down, because these people don't believe in anything other than spreadsheets.

you can have centralised and collective planning of service provision free from market informed moral constraints as slippers notes. it's central to a lot of modern social democratic thinking. but as mark fisher is famed for noting, to conceptualise this stuff under late stage capitalism feels equal to imaging fantasy books.

less in jest, saying a wesley is paternalististic, isn't a critique of paternalism as a whole, but how said politician uses that specific facet to the degree it's overbearing in his decision making. to justify otherwise contrarian positions. as slippers mentions elsewhere, any normal socially democratic person would be lording how this is universally promising.

wtf 😂

Ha ha ha! Totally!

but as mark fisher is famed for noting, to conceptualise this stuff under late stage capitalism feels equal to imaging fantasy books

Maybe I'm more optimistic, but I prefer Graeber's quote which seems to me like a direct response to Capitalist Realism: "The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something that we make, and could just as easily make differently" 🙂

Glad someone has cited Graeber here.

Isn't this all just a consequence of it being budget season? The announcement are framed in economic terms because that's the priority at the moment

Probably. But budget season in my household tends to involve discussion about nice and/or practical things, not whether we should punish little jimmy for not putting the cornflakes back in the cupboard.

I don't have kids though, so that would be weird anyway.