US Politics

The shortest version of middle class is being in the professions and owning your home, but having to work for a living.

Aha, interesting. I always understood it as being pretty well off, although not silly rich. Looks like I was in the wrong then, your description above is what it means over here as well

I think this is a cute set of examples

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How I've always understood the British class system, not sure I agree with the definition but hey ho.
Working class = All your income comes from working for a living
Middle class = A portion of your income comes from inherited wealth
Upper class = Work? What's that?

Don't think that's right. Middle class is much more of a vibe - not sure most Drs, lawyers etc have a portion of income from inherited wealth.

I think most people judge it based on a combination of spoken accent, job, cultural factors (including where you went to school). Shop at Waitrose, listen to r4, academic? You could be middle class but not that well off (you don't fit into most people's perceptions of working class)

Edit: I'm obviously on dangerous ground saying what I think "most people" would say since there are clearly different views though

I think that's the old fashioned way of looking at class, I would agree with you that snobbery has moved on since those days and professionals get lumped into the middle class now.

A learned journo I read says all that old class stuff is all but meaningless now, and the new division pits the 'knowledge class' against everyone else...

Not sure how much of it I buy

It's definitely not meaningless. But as Andy pointed out it's complicated now.

I always remember someone at uni calling themselves working class because their dad was "a plumber" and they had a regional accent - even though the dad was incredibly wealthy with a small business and employees, one sister was a barrister, the other did some other profession and he became a teacher.

For him there was clearly a cache to being working class, or at least "having a working class background" (even if I personally wouldn't associate a privileged upbringing in a massive house in the suburbs as a working class background).

Anyway, main point is our definitions differ from the US who tend towards a blue collar / white collar split.

Middle class = A portion of your income comes from inherited wealth

Except that middle class is something people can become. Happened in unprecedented numbers post WWII with the opportunities created by the welfare state and student grants, before tailing off dramatically as Thatcher started taking an axe to everything. I suspect a lot of people on here could trace a quite short path back in their family trees to the people who were born working class and yet found themselves, having graduated and gotten a job nobody in their family had ever had before, inviting their new professional/social acquaintances round for cheese fondue and wine so they could show off the new carpet tiles they'd just put down. I'm told.

I like this for the USA. A slippery definition like this is excellent procrastination fodder.

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It was a barrier to social mobility, like you say, post war Britain (The Beatles, obvs) put a stop to all that. Me and my best mates from secondary school were a real mixed bag; our parents were bartenders, chefs, waiters, housekeepers, filmmakers, animators, musicians, artists, terrorists (!). We've all come out pretty 'middle class', whatever that means.

I always thought it was about options - I'm middle class because I can choose what I want to do as job, rather than be restricted into one thing, or just getting anything I can to pay the bills.
Obviously that doesn't work in every case.

so is kerry katona is upper or middle class ?

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• twittervid.com_WritesBright_91e89e.mp4

Median household income in the US was $74k in 2023. Top 1% is over $591k.

A magat told me Kamala’s family had slaves.
As proof he posts a link to her ancestor that died 180 years ago!
Is that relevant? I think not.

“ I suspect a lot of people on here could trace a quite short path back in their family trees to the people who were born working class and yet found themselves, having graduated and gotten a job nobody in their family had ever had before”

That will be me then. I still think of myself as working class because I still feel different to most of my friends (university educated with some inherited wealth but no council house/free school meals upbringing )but it’s hard to put a finger on or describe that.
It’s in your head but is instantly recognisable in others, you can just tell they are from money or at least a comfortable living.
Technically I’m now middle class and have some but not all of the trappings, I make no effort to hide my origins as it’s not really needed in my line of work and make no judgement on where people are from apart from those who try to hide it or present something that isn’t real.

I do get the fear in places like Highgate and Hampstead though, no way could I live there no matter how much money I had.

The class system is so ingrained in this country’s history, society and politics it will take centuries to erase.

Who is Kerry Katona?

I had you down as an Atomic Kitten fan.

I’m an Atomic Blonde fan

I'm an Atomic by Blondie fan

It’s in your head but is instantly recognisable in others

There are lots of visual and behavioural clues to working class origins...clothes, accent, language, tattoos and many more. In the US these things get the label 'trailer trash', in the UK the labels used to be chav, scally, common etc. The middle and upper classes know they shouldn't use the labels any more, but they haven't stopped being snobs. This is where the class system in the UK is still very powerful. Your social mobility is affected if you don't hide these clues. You'll be weeded out at interviews for 'professional' jobs. Even if you have as much money as the Beckhams you'll still be scorned as proles. It used to be widespread to pay for training to hide the clues...elocution lessons, deportment lessons. I don't think people do this any more, unless they're actors or TV presenters. I think the demise of our class system could be sped up by getting rid of the royal family.

In the same way that a lot of the alt-right have a mantra that the Nazis were communists (which requires some double-think, since a lot of them are wannabe Nazis themselves), Magats have a mantra that all evil things in U.S. history were caused by the Democrats. To be fair, in the 19th and early 20th century history of the Democrats there's a lot of nasty shit, but it also requires double-think because of

1. Nixon's Southern Strategy, bringing all those Dixiecrats who couldn't forgive LBJ for his anti-Jim-Crow legislation into the Republican party (or into alignment with it).
   
2. There are Republican politicians flying Confederate flags in their congressional offices and defending statues of Confederate generals.
   
   

Magats can fit all that in their tiny heads, blame modern Democrats for the old party's support for the Confederacy, while also thinking that slavery wasn't so bad and pining for Jim Crow.

Your magat acquaintance's argument fits right into all that.

This very much varies by professions though doesn't it? I get that it might apply to publishing or TV. But in the City you've been able to make a fuck tonne of money and become senior for over 40yrs as long as you're able regardless of class or sexual oriention.

How does that work Oliver? When he’s speaking live at an event what aspect of the TV appearances is present?

Where did I say 'because he is on TV'? It's about the programmes he was on for years. Similarly for Johnson or Farage. TV has this effect of establishing people in the public sphere as important figures. People just trust them, in many cases quite indiscriminately. I'm sure undecided people turn up for Trump rallies, too, but many will turn up who've already made up their minds unshakeably and will just be there to celebrate their hero.

It's also why a TV debate can take Trump down a peg, because it was on the same medium that initially enabled him. It's no surprise that he now doesn't want to have any more.