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One case in which it is known that civilians were hit, a case that received wide coverage, took place in the house of Pessi Cohen at Kibbutz Be'eri. 14 hostages were held in the house as the IDF attacked it, with 13 of them killed. In the coming weeks, the IDF is expected to publish the results of its investigation of the incident, which will answer the question of whether Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram, the commander of Division 99 who was in charge of operations in Be'eri on October 7, was employing the Hannibal procedure. Did he order the tank to move ahead even at the cost of civilian casualties, as he stated in an interview he gave later to the New York Times?
Always the case. Months later when the deed is done and dusted, and the misattribution of the deed to the enemy has already been firmly rooted in the minds of many, evidence or an admission surfaces to show what really happened.
I'm aware that many of us in this convo knew/assumed that the Hannibal directive was summoned and that the IDF went on a rampant spree, targeting or not considering the safety of people they should have been protecting, but this still feels like a "I told you so" moment.
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Trigger: nightmarish real scenes from Gaza.
500,000 people are displaced and evacuating in Gaza. Humbling example of how supraliminality works against us: these people are living actual hell on earth, but there’s so many of them that their suffering becomes abstract. This report brings it back to reality, with just a brief view of what a small fraction of those people are being made to endure.
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It pains me to see a country commit acts of self harm, and the course Israel’s current leadership are taking will likely end up costing Israel more than they stand to gain by bombing their enemy’s negotiator in the capital of their major regional foe, with whom they don’t have open hostilities yet.
Israel has at least been coherent with their message from the start: they will eliminate every last (person they identify as a) Hamas fighter.
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A former commander of the Israeli army in the West Bank, Avi Mizrahi, says most settlers are law-abiding Israeli citizens, but he does admit the existence of outposts makes violence more likely.
...
The outposts - which can be farms, clusters of houses, or even groups of caravans - often lack defined boundaries and are illegal under both Israeli and international law.
🤔
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UK has paused 30 weapons delivery contracts to Israel based on Foreign Office legal review if the likelihood they’d be used to violate international law. The US hasn’t paused or commented.
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Seizing land in the west bank at gun point.
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The word settler is doing a lot of propaganda work these day, just like ‘ethnic’, as in ethnic Russian-speakers.
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Powerful reading
And illustrates the intractability of the situation if these 2 empathetic women can't move to much understanding of each other's pain, apart from therapy platitudeshttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/13/israel-palestine-7-october-gaza-orna-guralnik
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Powerful for whom?
On one side you have a zionist, who claims her family went to Israel in the 30's when there was no Israel and the only zionists there were nothing more than terrorists by today's standards.
Then a Palestinian, who fled (her words) when she was 7 in 2001, to the USA. Her country being invaded and conquered.
I got as far as the victim blaming for the wall. Then I stopped. Skimmed some of the rest as amazingly my opinion did not change.
But I once again read about the glee on the Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinians on social media. Whilst my experiences mentioned here were questioned.
Also read that Israel has a right to exist, yet no comment on those whose land it was and has been invaded/conquered.
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Powerful for whom?
For me. And scary and depressing for the reasons I stated in my post.
That Your opinion didn't change (not sure what skin you have have in this) is unsurprising
That their opinions and feelings hardly changed despite a brave attempt at open dialogue and listening properly to each other was what got me.
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Israel is going after Hezbollah a la Hamas now. Looks like a foray onto Lebanese soil is coming, not just air raids. How big or for how long is anyone’s guess except the Israeli leadership. The US are getting their expeditionary marine units ready in case that pot suddenly boils over because, unless someone manages a diplomatic tour de force, Israel is going to hold the heat on high even if it means another indefinite conflict/war. Saudi Arabia have been watching and are quietly checking their own readiness in case a belligerent Israel suddenly punches through Lebanon and puts a battle-hardened army on their border. Iran are busy trying to unfuck their situation and avoid getting assassinated by Israel while still fucking themselves over selling ammo to Russia in exchange for security guarantees and money.
Not looking good for hopes of avoiding a wider war.
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It's a particularly depressing Catch-22. It's in Netanyahu's personal interest to intensify the chaos, both as support to the Trump campaign and in furtherance of staying in power and out of jail himself. Biden could stop it with a phone call, but won't so close to the election for fear that they'll be accused of appeasing Hamas, betraying Israel etc. I suspect that if Trump wins, there will be some sort of ceasefire, because he'll either agree to, or fail to protest the increased settlement activity in the west bank / annexation of northern Gaza. If Harris wins, short of a real shift in the US / Israel relationship (which has happened in recent memory!) the fighting probably goes on for as long as Netanyahu can retain political control.
Generally, it seems like a very similar dynamic to what's happening in Ukraine.
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Daah, embarrassing. Meant Syria, got to thinking about the Saudis, both start with S…
Anyway, Israel and Syria have been trading blows since 2011, and they’ve been at war pretty much since (modern) Israel came into existence, iirc.
Assad, who had close ties with Qasem Soleimani (the general assassinated by Israel) and supported proxy attacks on Israeli targets, has made no secret of his contempt of Israel. Meanwhile the Israelis have made no secret of their willingness to settle scores and take the fight whoever they see as enabling attacks on their people/territory, which is a convenient coincidence allowing them to control territory (the disputed Golan Heights, in this hypothetical). If shtf, Netanyahu knows the US will put American lives on the line to protect Israel’s people and territory. He also knows that unless he stays in power or somehow makes himself a living Israeli national hero, his replacements will try to imprison him.
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As an invading terrorist force, Israel have invaded , murdered unarmed children (as throwing stones against armoured vehicles is a reason to shoot to kill). Imprisoned people, without trial, threatened rape and raped female prisoners.
The only reason that they still exist at the current borders is the us/uk/EU military backing as the UN sanctions are ignored. We invaded Iraq for how many UN sanctions? ( Two) While Israel have many many more sanctions over longer period of time, and how hard is it to get a UN sanction.
But more importantly to some here, what is your skin in the game.
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skin in the game.
Mine personally? I won’t disclose, but it’s on Israel’s and Palestine’s sides, so my concern is for generalised human wellbeing, security, and rule of law, not for a political entity or faction.
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Without making light of it, at this point I’d wager actual money that Israel will be sending ground troops into Lebanon within the next month. They’ve spent and invested so much resource at this point that it wouldn’t make sense unless they were intending to go in.
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After the showdown between Israeli tanks and Irish UNIFIL troups refusing to be forced out of their position (which has made Ireland the new hate target for the Isreaeli far right), UNIFIL now reports a series of incidents where Israeli forces fired on their bases in Lebanon. This is all depressingly familiar.
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The sentiment in Ireland at the moment is one of immense pride in our armed forces in Lebanon.
Our first UN posting was in Lebanon in 1958 and ever since there has always been a close connection between Ireland and Lebanon.
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(which has made Ireland the new hate target for the Isreaeli far right)
The isreali, right and indeed its government have been hating Ireland for months because Ireland consistently calls out their shit-baggery murderous ways. The Isreali ambassador to Ireland fucked off months ago in a huff.
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I'm not going to share the stupid shit I've seen online, but the cognitive dissonance is immense. The Israeli alt-right are saying things like "The Irish are terrorists" and "We should invade them", and I'm thinking "Hang on, we messed you - and the Palestinians - around the same way we did Ireland, if not for so long. We called them terrorist, we called you terrorists. Lots of people here use the same 'two tribes who will always fight' argument about both Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine, in complete ignorance of how much we did to set up both situations. The Irish are the last people you should be hating." But I guess this just shows how much colonialist thinking has become dominant in Israeli politics.
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Israel / Palestine
Posted by
@skydancer
The figures published by the "kHkHkHaMas controlled" Ministry of Health are conservative, in that they only included verifiable, confirmed deaths. We know there are 10s of thousands more of those who are/were unidentified, unreported, completely disintegrated, trapped under rubble and what have you. The dispute is in the estimates, and it's frightening what some reputable sources believe it to be.
That's one of the higher figures I've seen.