Heatpumps For Everyone

For some the grant means it’s not expensive. For big drafty poorly built homes it is not cheap, those kind of places are expensive to make efficient and expensive to heat whatever the type of fuel.

I guess the trouble is that a lot of none big drafty homes would then have trouble on where to locate the thing.

My place is too poorly insulated but, even if it wasn't, where to put a chunky heat pump would be a real issue.

Thankfully, you are wrong on this. Heatpumps are used throughout northern Europe, which have much lower temperatures through the winter than we do.

The problem with UK housing stock is the lack of insulation, something that has been exacerbated by a lack of government will to mandate proper insulation in new build homes.

A problem that isn’t going to go away, having spent thousands on getting our flat insulated and with heat pump ready pipe work it’s unlikely permission would be granted to actually fit one.
Technically it’s not feasible either due to height/access.
Only option would be a block wide ground/source or some big unit on the roof which is never going to happen unless everyone agrees to the significant cost.

I'm not actually wrong though, yes they are used in europe but the houses in the UK have been sized for 40 odd years with a temp that's isnt designed for HP. They also aren't insulated unless it's a new build for the spec that is required to make them work out cheaper.

So there for spending 20 or 30 grand to make it carbon neutral is a flawed especially when you will probs not save that money over the life time of the product.

Therefore the gas boiler although overall might not be cheaper to run compared to a heat pump if you do some costing it'll be cheaper over the lifetime of the product.

Also my aunt in italy just got a HP installed, Cylinder, Solar and it was 47k euros. Hard to see how that system will be implemented here when the grants dry up as folk aint spend 2/3 grand replacing a boiler never mind 20/30 or 40 grand to do it right.

I'm also not against HP's, I have the tickets to do them I just dont see the demand for them here when in reality a lot of the stuff installed with the grants is the same as the free boiler fiasco we've had for a long time. Poorly installed a lot of the time as it all down to making as much money as possible from it and by the time the people realised the company has changed names and they have no liabilitys at that point.
If they changed the grant system to say a cheque that the home owner can get there own installer in and they can cash that cheque against the value of the job the stand would go up massively but right now its only folk who know how to navigate the system that can access it.

Almost good isn't that Labour plan a large insulation retro fit programme and massive expansion of renewable energy to bring electricity costs down and shifting costs from electricity to gas tariff to close the differential in cost. That is probably five years away though from decent levels of implementation.

Solar and battery prices are getting very cheap now but the scaffold costs and labour cost increases have offset the fall in costs.

I've just started a career in energy advice and need a new boiler. We looked at heat pumps and it's not really viable (without a much higher cost) as it'll involve removing half the kitchen and finding somewhere for a water tank as the old boiler is a combi, for now at least a decent new boiler makes much more sense, being off the gas grid would be nice but not going to happen this time round.
As for rip off merchant firms, I was round somewhere the other week and it looks like someone has installed solar thermal on the roof of this place and their family's house across the road but left them unconnected, with a combi boiler that probably can't run off preheated water and a leaky roof and thoughts of free electric, the street has more installs in both directions. I'd assume someone has gathered a load of grants, got something on dinner roofs to get more business then fucked off the company, infuriating as these are generally poor people who need proper help but are being exploited.

I'd assume someone has gathered a load of grants, got something on dinner roofs to get more business then fucked off the company,

The way government schemes have operated on these things the last decade from external insulation, to cavity filling to solar has been criminal and just fuelled cowboy firms that pop up fueled by a grant to then vanish and move on to the next scheme as a new firm

As someone who has recently been navigating retrofitting and insulating all with the aim of eventually installing an ASHP I can attest to the number of cowboys out there. I think there is a huge lack of impartial advice to help people find the right installers, service providers or to even prioritise how to make meaningful changes in their home - and this is defo fuelled by the grant schemes. I've even found retrofitting advisors who are pretty clueless in advising on reputable firms.

Feel fortunate to be able to navigate it all but it really is awful out there if you're not in a position too.

Longer than a decade Green, the free boilers thing has been getting done for 20 years at least and its been a shambles since then but they are all the same and roll into the next one.

I know someone who wasn't a gas engineer that started a company and fitted free boilers for 18 months - 2 years then folded the business and moved on.(He didnt fit them just operated the grant money and hired people) Infurating to say the least!

It is mad, we (Energyworks team at Groundwork) have some contractors we trust but that's mainly for local stuff, there are accreditations that firms can sign up to and that energy companies recommend any installers have (NIECEC MCS) but I've not got any personal experience as yet as to whether they're worth anything.

Is the cowboy issue a uniquely British thing or is this European also?

I imagine where there is grant money there is always folk that take the piss, espically when no one really checks the company’s or the standards of work supplied for the grants.

I think the lack of consequences for shutting a dodgy company is the big problem.

I see heatgeeks are now an Octopus partner and will be given the jobs that octopus think are too hard/ non conventional for thier standard installers

We looked at heat pumps and it's not really viable (without a much higher cost) as it'll involve removing half the kitchen and finding somewhere for a water tank as the old boiler is a combi, for now at least a decent new boiler makes much more sense, being off the gas grid would be nice but not going to happen this time round.

Have a look at the new Heat Geek Mini Store. Clever heat pump hot water tank that can fit in a kitchen cupboard.

Yep. The Ltd company structure is a free pass for being a crook.

Have a look at the new Heat Geek Mini Store. Clever heat pump hot water tank that can fit in a kitchen cupboard.

Just watched the latest video on it. Very clever innovation. Being able to literally replace your boiler with the cylinder in the same cupboard with the same piping is a game changer for cost and fit complexity.

I'm finding it hard to get my head around the conversation about heat pumps not suiting specific types of house conversation.

I've installed heat pumps in buildings built as far back as 1715. I've also installed heat pumps in shitty60s and 70s builds.

Heat pumps are a more cost effective means of converting paid-for-energy into heat energy than boilers. (full stop).

If your house is an inefficient, poorly insulated disaster then it's equally as inefficient at retaining the heat generated by a boiler as it is the heat generated by a heat pump.

Yes heat pumps are more efficient at lower operating temperatures and save more money which in turn improves your ROI but that doesn't mean you don't make savings at higher temperatures.

Yes they're expensive to install but in most cases that is actually caused by additional works and upgrades required at the same time such as switching from an unvented DHW system to a pressurised system. The capital cost is certainly higher than replacing your existing boiler but it's almost never a like-for-like swap.

Lastly, even though they are a more expensive up front cost you are adding value to your home. Typically a good heat pump installation, even domestic, should last for 10-15years and at that point the infrastructural works have been done to make a future replacement easy.

Think of it as when your folks (or grandfolks) first got in central heating all those years ago... it was a massive infrastructural upgrade to a house which then had numerous repairs and upgrades over the years... switching to a heat pump now is the same thing, albeit probably less costly and invasive than completely replumbing your home.

Interesting post.

I understand your point about it not necessarily being the heat pump install itself but the wider works. But ultimately that is a factor. Eg we went for the modern equivalent of our existing boiler because the guy said a like-for-like would be £2,100 as its light work to swap them over.

you are adding value to your home.

Do you have figures to support this statement?

Do you have figures to support this statement?

I know in Ireland the estimate is that for every 1 level increase on BER (Building Energy Rating) the property value increases by 1% so on a £500k house which increases from C3 to A3 (this is the increase I achieved with my own heat pump install at home) the value of that increase is 6% which is £30,000.

This report suggests even higher value add in UK

Agreed on the additional works being the real killer on price but I think people need to just get their head around treating it as a major home upgrade, which it is.

That is quite interesting, maybe not for us for now but looks useful for moving away from gas in general. I guess you'll not be taking advantage of economy 7 rates so much not heating a big tank over night but good if you've got solar PV and no batteries to self use the electric.

get their head around treating it as a major home upgrade, which it is.

Not always an option though. If grants make it cost the same as a straight swap new boiler, then all good, but if you need to have a spare load of extra cash that you can convert to property value rather than food it gets in the way quite a lot.

Of course, I'm not trying to make little of the cost and I appreciate it's going to be out of the budget of very many people. I would imagine people had the same conversation about installing central heating instead of fireplaces many years ago too though.

Councils should be working towards plans for district heating systems with centralised heat pump plant rooms in more densely populated areas which will account for a lot of the future switch to heat pumps anyway, it's not practical or achievable to think that every single home will have its own heat pump.

Will need to be some grant to bring the cost down to the same price and even then how long can that be sustained as there isnt an unlimited money tree for things like that.

Saying that, you get the HP installed and in 10-15 years when it needs replaced and is 10 grand to replace it will people have the money to get it done. People aint spending 2000 odd the now to replace old boilers so I feel like it'll be the same old thing again but worse.