"save brazed framebuilding" exploratory meeting 22nd february

Is anyone signed up to come to the heritage crafts association "exploratory meeting" on brazed bicycle frames? It's tomorrow evening.

It's due to the heritage crafts association putting brazed bicycle building into the endangered crafts list.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/endangered-bespoke-bike-frame-builders-unite-to-save-their-industry

Email info as below:

Dear frame builders,

We are looking forward to seeing you all on Thursday evening at 7pm. There has been a fantastic response to this meeting and we are expecting this to be a useful discussion. I will resend the zoom link again just ahead of the meeting on Thursday to make sure that you all have it at the top of your inboxes.

Please can you spare a few minutes to fill in a quick signing up form. This is just to gauge your interest and doesn't commit you to anything at this stage. All of this information will be treated as strictly confidential and will not be shared or used for any other purposes outside of this group.

Please complete the signing up form here: https://forms.gle/UTZcTkAuKEZhdwAF7

Thank you,

We've had to excuse ourselves unfortunately as we already had plans. We did ask for the agenda so we could put forward some thoughts and asked for the minutes but we never got the agenda.

Hope it's useful for everyone.

Gotta love a lugless brazed frame!

Nah, that was rubbish. Sorry for sharing.

It's just a bunch of people remembering the good old days and trying to gatekeep framebuilding from the young 'uns.

Oh, that's a shame. Doesn't seem like that was the aim of putting it on the list endangered crafts, eh.

Well that’s a huge shitter. No wonder we are endangered!

We do remember when a company claimed that there should only be 50 builders allowed in the uk at any one time and the only way fresh blood could enter the industry is if someone on the “official permitted list” drops out. It was to “guarantee enough work for everyone”. Utter shite.

Surely they should be looking at america as potentially model. Its been extremely successful cottage industry, and its roots lays in builders that learnt the trade in UK, mainly witcombs.

The USA also has a considerably (understatement) larger consumer population.

I would be interested to know the framebuilders per 1000 population comparison though.

They also had a large population in 1970s, but almost no framebuilding industry. Through NHABs, innovation and marketing they built it up.

Oh I didn't know that, fair enough. What are NHABs?

My apologies NAHBS, north America handmade bike show. UK has bespoked which is great but everything seems to at a bigger scale and grander vision across the pond.

UK has bespoked

And Brazin’ ;)

everything seems to at a bigger scale and grander vision across the pond

I definitely agree with that!

I reckon if there was more demand there would be more frame builders. Not due to lack of skills/knowledge.
What do you think?

I guess some skills are on the endangered list because nobody wants to do them anymore, or the skills are not being past down.... But frame building isn't like that.

I guess some skills are on the endangered list because nobody wants to do them anymore,

The gatekeepers would probably be responbsible for this in quite a lot of cases...

I have known this to be true in the motor trade too, where coachbuilders/metal shapers disliked training apprentices.
That Trade is also on the endangered list suprise surprise.

Yeah, I've heard that too.
But then making a car/motorcycle/plane body from aluminium takes many many years to learn, even to a basic level. My brother works for a coach builders. There are very few training courses and a backlog of work.

While brazing a bicycle frame is a relatively accessible skill to acquire in comparison and not many frame builders have a full order book.

Also, a frame can be made in a few days, so a builder needs 50 frames a year to keep busy, or whatever.

While a coach builder probably only needs to re-body one car a year (or 3?), so one customer is satisfied each year instead of 50

For frame building to grow as a discipline, there needs to be more customers, a bigger market.
I think, talking as a bit of an outsider really.
And can the endangered list do much about that?

I think you will find the skills are cross transferable if you can tig you can go and earn 35 an hour welding boxes together , choices become do i take home 1000 a week or bust my balls trying to run a business love only lasts so long before reality bites hence you get more hobby guys holding down a full time gig also , theres a massive skills shortage where to stay in business you need to pay for skilled people and as there becomes less the rates spiral further, its a vicious cycle till the industry dies

I swore i would never go back to work but literally a 5k a week pay packet says otherwise and no i meant a week not a month.

Yoy can buy a very good lightweight carbon bicycle for 2k these days unless you value the artisan thing no one cares to look beyond the adverts that pop up on the 6 inch mind control device they carry in their pocket and this seems to be generational also and a battle of hearts and minds in that respect

Kids these days dont give a shit about a handbuilt anything ( sounding like my grandad)

My point was mainly that I don't think that framebuilding is on the 'endangered' list because of a shortage of skills, but more a shortage of customers.

Part of the problem with manual trades and declining 'hand-skills' is the respect, kudos and value that society attributes to them... something for other-peoples kids to do...
Frame building doesn't have that problem either - it's seen as artisanal and coffee-table books are dedicated to them.
People don't quit their job in finance to become TIG welders, but they do to become framebuilders.

(£35 an hour is either astonishingly good pay or fairly average... depending if you are paid by PAYE or as a contractor with your own equipment, workshop, insurance, no holiday pay or work guarantees).

Part of the problem is its a very different kettle of fish from building a frame or 2 to making a living from frame building and building a brand and customer service that attaches to it.
Dare I say it Isen is a prime example of how things can going down hill.
With the skills and workmanship equal if not surpassing the UK/USA/europe in the far East, very hard to justify a bespoke built locally, especially in brand driven world, I can't imagine many millennials even desiring something like Mercian or Rourke.

Maybe it's just the bubble I live in but I really think that people are starting to respect things with a very long life more and more. Obviously a steel frame made in Taiwan can potentially last as long as a steel frame made in Yorkshire or where ever else but point being that steel can last much much longer than carbon or aluminium frames.

So even if the frame was made in Taiwan, maybe there will be more work for framebuilders doing repairs going forward. It needs to become more common to get your bike frame repaired than to buy another one. I think that's an area that framebuilding should try to sell itself on, the longevity and environmentally friendly side of things.

Obviously there's other huge obstacles about consumerism in the way of that but it's a general idea.