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Think I should walk away from this thread, while the thread seems to be on my mind. Do have an issue with antisemetism as a exmember of the Labour Party and Supporter of Jeremy Corbyn. Am still amazed how the Board of Deputies of British Jews (who are quite a right wing group as the group support thr tory Party) are involved with left wing politics. The reaction to a US born afro-carabian lady jew, who was vocally critical of Israel, even daring to talk about Holocaust Day to include historical genocide of Black people. Even now an afro carabean Labour MP has had the whip withdrawn as she said in a social media post on Holocaust Day including the genocide of the Palestinian people.
Disagreeing with the definition of antisemetism by the IHRA, as the Board of deputies and Jewish voice for labour both seem to have issues with the definition details here https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/statement/response-to-board-of-deputies-10-pledges-document/Labour
yet the BOD forced this on Labour. Which seems odd, as I know of Labour supporting Jews so have no idea about others groups.
Having been to the area in the mid 90s and did not like what I saw and then read up on the history. Noted that there were quite a few biased histories, as every writer has there own bias. But then look at how Israel has invaded areas and we happily use the name occupied terroitories which should be illegally in capitals and bold before it.
Israel has many UN sanctions against it, and even the trying to get Jeruselm as the capital in against a UN sanction in the Mid 1960s. Never mind many human rights abuses and commiting murder without trial of people whom Israel feel have wronged it.
In this war Israel seem to have had some great PR/media control. From the lies of Hamas murdering babies when the fact seems to be the opposite. Asked about trusted news sources, but got no reply. When I look at the BBC seems we have front page stories of three Israeli soldiers killed in the recent attack. Another example is the when the reason court case decision of genocide. The beeb reporting was very one sided. But the same time it comes out UNWRA have 12 workers (out of 13,000) were part of the recent Hamas attack and on the back of that funding is quickly stopped by many governments. Now channel 4 looked these claims up and there is no substansiation to any of the claims made. Note that over 150 UNWRA workers have been killed by Israel https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/27/middleeast/unrwa-israel-hamas-october-7-allegations-intl/index.html seems not get mentioned. Read the article as there have been claims on twitter by Israeli Journalist that were picked up but had no basis. No retraction or apology.
Looks like this case https://www.councilestatemedia.uk/p/british-court-verdict-confirms-that?fbclid=IwAR0K2XxK5ZrwVOYPGQanVWoWZflo_tnWDZGp-Z0-EHwamVtCtgMKW0I510w being anti zionist is not anti semetic. Does make interesting reading. Look how Antonio Gueterres speech was mis represented. https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/oct/25/uns-antonio-guterres-says-he-is-shocked-by-misrepresentations-of-his-gaza-comments-video. While Israel stopped UN access as a reply. Which do you believe/think is right?
In this war there are two sides of the story and I cannot back an illegal invader of the area. Also I cannot condemn an action by one side without looking at the other side. Two wrongs do not make a right, but I can understand terrorist actions as the same/similar what would be label terrorist actions nower days were used in the past and what the terrorists wanted came true.
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Surprise surprise? Not really...
https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1756241959297888660?s=46
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Does anyone think there might be a negotiated two state solution at the end of this misery?
The psychological pressure around the world is so intense. So many of us are grieving for the children being slaughtered by tanks. It seems inevitable that Netanyahu will be removed. Moderate Israeli voices might prevail. Allegedly this was Sinyar's plan - the dead children and the many who will soon be killed by the IDF are all martyrs who will help create a new Palestine.
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I don't. It's failed for long enough and it was a diabolical proposition with unfair compromise from the very start (the Oslo Accords).
But the sheer arrogance and disregard of Britain, France, USA, the Zionist movement and others to think they could simply carve out a home in the very distant and foreign Levant for Eastern Europeans Jewish migrants, by taking 80% of the land of the Palestinians (only ~3% of whom were Jewish) without consultation or consideration of their near unanimous opposition - let alone that of the neighbouring Arabs, the global South states [important because a) they too were very experienced with American-European oppression and colonialism and can smell it from afar and b) they are part of this world too and their objection was worth nothing]
Anyone with sense would've taken things back to the drawing board unless they had ulterior motives, which was clearly the case. Anyone with sense also knew that this Zionist dream would be a Palestinian nightmare that could only be achieved militarily and with bloodshed.
What's going on at Rafah now is yet another stark reminder that Israel desires a one state solution by creating a humanitarian crisis and to pressure neighbouring countries (Egypt for Rafah) to take in refugees, or to wipe out large swathes of civilians if they don't. [It's truly embarrassing how little they've harmed Hamas both in numbers and public perception.] And then at the end of the day they might just absorb whatever remnants of a Palestinian population happen to remain.
So yeah, how things currently look the two-state solution seems unlikely to me and both sides would desire otherwise. The Palestinians have every right to resist and reclaim their occupied land (even pre-1967) from this oppressive settler colonialism and inherently dangerous and racist ideological regime that has done nothing but usurp more and more of their human rights and call for their ethnic cleansing. It's that simple. Only Zionists and their ilk like the lobbyists that they fund claim otherwise.
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The Zionist movement started in the early 1880s and was opposed by world Jewry, while the Balfour declaration to steal (calling spades spades here) Palestinian territories was made in 1917 - the designs predate the horrors of WWII and the holocaust some 30 or 60 years depending which event you're counting from.
When Ibn Saud and Roosevelt had a rather friendly and cordial discussion on the issue following WWII, Ibn Saud suggested (paraphrasing) "then give them the choicest of homes and lands of the Germans who oppressed them", a statement which foreign correspondents David Holden and Richard Johns described as unassailable logic. I'm in total agreement with them.
Given how far UK, USA, Germany and others have gone to upholding a genocide, preventing a ceasefire and are even targeting Yemenis who have not killed a single person with their disruption in the Red Sea and are now sanctioning South Africa, I'm sure they would've offered similar support if something kicked off in Europe again.
It's true, Europe has repeatedly failed their resident Jewish (and to a different extent Muslim) populations through their history of inquisitions and pogroms etc. They failed again with the Holocaust, and they failed again in 1948. The only difference in the last case was which population was being ethnically cleansed this time round.
Point is that this is clearly not a working 'solution' and yes I maintain that the premise was absurd from the get go.
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Well reasoned, but this logic will lead nowhere, because Israel now exists, it's people exist, and only another atrocity can reverse that.
South Africa, USA, Canada, Australia are all states built on colonialism and atrocities. All have deep problems obviously, but the only solutions to them are peaceful.
Edit, of course it took a civil war to end slavery in US ...
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^all of the above is why I think the only solution that could work in theory without performing yet more ethnic cleansing would be to create a single multi-national, multi-faith state in which all have equal rights. Unfortunately it is entirely theoretical as there are so many extremists who would prevent such a thing from ever happening. So we’re left with trying to find the least bad options, and all the options on offer suck.
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I respect that and am aware - nothing like a non-violent, just, fair and peaceful resolution which we all desire I imagine (bar some war-mongering crackpots of course). South Africa might be the most pertinent example that you mention, which is why there's growing popularity of scholarly work comparing the Palestine case with South Africa and the apartheid regime.
Whether applying that strategy (boycotting, divesting, sanctioning etc.) leads to the desired outcomes - we don't know yet, but it's certainly worth a try for those that way inclined morally. I've noticed that some of the key figures of this movement, including Chomsky and Israeli historian Pappe have shifted to a one-state solution mindset: a Palestine for all without the dangers of Zionism and the respondent Islamic extremism (I hate using this over-used and blanket term but you know what I mean) which might disrupt that.
Another comparison drawn is with former European colonies around the globe. Think South America and the Caribbean, Africa (for Palestine the North of is particular relevance), the Indian sub-continent to an extent, and elsewhere. By and large, these were much more bloody episodes that have gone down in history for what they were; struggles for justice and freedom.
The idealist wishes for one solution, but the realist recognises the efficacy of the uglier of the two. I'm not advocating anything here, just a desire for the best solution, as vague as that may sound.
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any solution or ceasefire would be bad for business....dare i say we are in WW3, west vs Brics
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9964/
https://expose-news.com/2024/02/09/brics-agenda-and-western-empire-agenda-are-the-same/
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Nicaragua files a complaint against Germany before the ICJ claiming that by continuing to support Israel since October 2023, when there were indications of an ongoing genocide against the Palestinians, Germany has broken the Geneva Convention stipulation to do everything in its power to prevent genocide. Due to the nature of the complaint, it takes immediate priority over all other cases.
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/193/193-20240301-pre-01-00-en.pdf
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Israel / Palestine
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@skydancer
More normal non-genocidal things
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-02-04/ty-article/.premium/israeli-army-its-admits-staff-was-behind-graphic-gaza-telegram-channel/0000018d-70b4-dd6e-a98d-f4b6a9c00000?v=1707125367670