That Starmer fella...

I absolutely trust that Keir Starmer does too.

Me too. And so we're clear, I do not want a big wishlist of stuff in an unrealistic manifesto - that's not what I'm saying we're missing. I saw what happened in 2019 when Corbyn chucked a load of stuff in the manifesto without laying the narrative groundwork for it first. (I think the free broadband policy was one of those most stupid I've ever heard but there was the germ of a good idea in there - but the public would only have bought it if they'd spent the year talking about how digital pathways were the key to success in life, upping opportunities, and levelling up the north etc. But they didn't.)

What I'm saying is that I'm saying we've a gap in narrative which ties all our policies together, and combined with the shifting stances on some issues, our critics can make a more or less valid argument that we don't 'stand for anything' - even though many of those policies really do.

One of the most significant policy announcements I thought was the supervised brushing in schools policy. It's basic common sense, it's strong, the economic arguments are behind it, the social arguments are behind it, and it tells us something about the kind of government Starmer's going to run - interventionist, unafraid of the 'nanny state' accusations, dedicated to ensuring some baseline level of standards for kids with parents who can't or won't do it for them. More stuff like this would backfill the narrative deficit (imo).

They won't remember any of Starmer's promises.

If they won't remember them, then remind me what the point of making those promises is in the first place?

Don't ask me. To keep Twitter Corbynites busy or something.

One of the most significant policy announcements I thought was the supervised brushing in schools policy. It's basic common sense, it's strong, the economic arguments are behind it, the social arguments are behind it, and it tells us something about the kind of government Starmer's going to run - interventionist, unafraid of the 'nanny state' accusations, dedicated to ensuring some baseline level of standards for kids with parents who can't or won't do it for them. More stuff like this would backfill the narrative deficit (imo).

I'm surprised you mentioned this as fitting the narrative gap you're talking about. To me it's a very bizarre policy indeed, and one that I suspect voters will likely reject as government being too involved in their children's lives, rather than fixing the underlying issues. Either that, or they'll fucking love it because it's authoritarian and focused on poorer households.

That's not to say they're not trying to fix the underlying issues, but this stuff quoted in the article is way more important, and I suspect more resonant too:

Labour’s action plan includes a 9pm watershed for junk-food ads, banning vape adverts aimed at children, a free breakfast club in every primary school, better access to mental-health support, cutting waiting times for hospital care for children, and guaranteeing more dental appointments.

It feels like the moment has changed and space for a few big interventionist policies would go down really well — not on people, but on systems. The green investment fund and single worker status were those things.

I'm surprised you mentioned this as fitting the narrative gap you're talking about. To me it's a very bizarre policy indeed, and one that I suspect voters will likely reject as government being too involved in their children's lives, rather than fixing the underlying issues.

That's actually why I really like the policy. At first glance it seems like nanny state, looney left, dancing round the edges, nonsense. But then when you hear Starmer or Streeting talk about it, and you find that tooth decay is the number one reason for children to have to go to hospital - because it's so hard to get a dentists appointment before it's too late - then the benefits become obvious. It's a no brainer, just for the misery, but even i fyou're a conservative you'll understand the economic benefit to sorting kids teeth out BEFORE they have to go to hospital with all the waste that entails.

I agree that the green industrial strategy was another of those big strategic projects which tell us narratively where Labour is at. I'm sad to see it disappear/scaled back.

I think it's quite smart. To me it feels like a gateway policy. Something hard to argue with. It shifts the narrative on State intervention and tries to detoxify it.

Or maybe it's just a proof of concept?

That said Idk why Daily Mail types are so anti State intervention. They're the biggest lot of agentless fucking bedwetters ever. As soon as something is notionally within their world they absolve themselves of any responsibility and want the State to do everything - make a law banning this, give me a scrapage scheme for that, tripple lock these, etc. Forever a hand out, never one in their pockets.

It's a no brainer

I guess we'll have to disagree on that front then, it feels petty rather than smart to me! I think schools are way too authoritarian to begin with, so adding on an additional layer of management for basic hygiene just feels like the wrong direction entirely, even as a proof of concept for detoxifying the narrative on state intervention.

They're the biggest lot of agentless fucking bedwetters ever

😂 Very true

even i fyou're a conservative you'll understand the economic benefit to sorting kids teeth out BEFORE they have to go to hospital

Looking at the state of the country I'm not so sure

Conservatives make shit decisions constantly that go against the economic case in favour of populism, this week see rowing back on boiler tax

So, Starmer is saying they are absolutely behind to the pledge for £28bn in green investment...subject to fiscal rules.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/06/keir-starmer-labours-28bn-green-investment-desperately-needed

And it will only be 10bn by year five?

unwavering? the man's never not wavering.

He's never wavering in the fact that his dad was a toolmaker and that he was the director of public prosecutions.

What kinda tools?

KS did an interesting interview on the times radio, I picked this up today on YouTube. Recommend a listen.

This fackin' tool

Think the real policy is to have a proper oral health service for children, of which the tooth brushing is only a part.
Under 5 oral health, or the lack of , is a major problem. It's the biggest cause of admissions to hospital for a GA for children under 5. Sad it's taken so long as we have known about this for nearly 20 years .

Under 5 tooth decay is easily preventable using a number of measures, of which the tooth brushing would be but one.

All that stuff I get, but it's largely been described as "supervised toothbrushing in schools", as if that's the headline policy. I saw a clip of Streeting on one of the morning TV couch shows talking about only this and not the wider reform of NHS dentistry.

From the article posted earlier:

the number one reason for young children being admitted to hospital is to extract rotten teeth – because it is so difficult to get NHS dental treatment before tooth decay sets in

If that's the cause, just fix that, surely? It can't just be me that thinks it's weird!

i don't think you're mad, but it makes a lot of sense when you realise a lot of the "art of the deal" in the real politik space is done like this, the whole structure of it reminds me of my uni politics days doing teaching, lot of very enthusiastic, Liberal people clapping "the kids need heavily ring fenced means tested assistance", famously the same era as this tweet which i present unedited.

1 Attachment

An absolute classic of the liberal age

Edit: damn, ninja edited attachment 😂

Polly got the last laugh as the tightening of benefit sanctions referred to up there was ruled unlawful and never went ahead anyway. In any event it's a very different situation because Labour are unlikely to be in a coalition with a stronger partner to appease.

the funny part is labour going on tv to say they’re not rolling back the benefit tightening polly prevented with her masterful gambit

It's a whole load of things.

Dentists used to see children for this type of work because they had the support of their local NHS; which was once something I used to be part of.

That evaporated in 2013 with the Lansley reforms, austerity, and the NHS England drifting into being only concerned with acute care in hospitals.

Lots of schemes were developed in the 2000s to deal with this problem, Scotland, I think still runs one, and they could easily be revived.
But does need local leadership and partnership to make them work.
Suspect some dentists won't treat when they could and they know they won't be held to account. Dental contract doesn't help either.
Clearly, Streeting could have better advice on this but he's not been in contact with me yet.

Yep, that seems like the right practical approach to me! And joking aside, that includes engaging with people like you who've worked in the problem space through different political eras and approaches.

I guess a grander point on the nature of realpolitik is that it's as much ideology as any alternative. Fixing complex systems starting from a moral position will always require a level of pragmatism, but if pragmatism for pragmatism's sake leads to odd policies like supervised toothbrushing then it's all gone to pot.

I was unaware of the “waste teacher’s time getting them to watch kids brush their teeth” policy suggestion before now, but many thanks for bringing it to my attention as it is hands down the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a while. Needed the lols.

Amazing how some things that are sensible / viable / necessary (nationalised utilities, for instance) are considered beyond the pale of reasonable political discussion, but you can lob an idiot bomb like “maybe our overstretched teaching resource can do a decent job of watching a bunch of foundation age kids brush their teeth?” and our dumbfuck press corps will lap it up like a bunch of thirsty labradors.

Between our politicians and our journalists, this country doesn’t stand a chance.