Israel / Palestine

I don't understand your reply.

The list keepers (which is what Al quieda means) as funded by the us, UK and others, stated that the attack on the US was a retaliation for the US support of Israel against muslims. Are you starting this isn't true?

Even Wikipedia has the answers for you

it was an act of mindless slaughter

Not sure it was mindless, but it was fucking atrocious. As has been the case for ever though, a group fighting against (not condoning anything) a much more powerful force will use whatever tactics they can, the people behind 9/11 didn't have the option to specifically target the people responsible for American crimes, what they chose to do was reprehensible but it was one of the few options they had available if you are fighting from their very twisted world view.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-palestinian-detainees.html

Israeli forces rounded up, tortured, and have kept incommunicado(s) thousands of Palestinian civilians immediately following the October attacks.

They’ve been reportedly doing this for years. Is anyone surprised?

How do you view Israeli mindless slaughter of innocents?

No, as Israel have been doing this for decades, since the late 1940s.

The UN have a few resolutions that have been mostly ignored. Note that these were after votes and look how difficult it is to get a resolution voted through at the UN.

How do you view Israeli mindless slaughter of innocents?

I'm gonna guess they're against it, what with them being a decent human being and all, no need to unnecessarily add more conflict to the conversation with leading questions you know the answer to.

attack on the US was a retaliation for the US support of Israel against muslims.

Stating this to justify killing 1000s of innocents at random doesn't justify the killing, any more than Israel saying their genocide is in retaliation against Hamas. Al Quaeda rejoice in the deaths of non Muslim westerners, just as the Israeli right rejoice in the deaths of all innocent Gazans.

Not disagreeing that it was presented as a retaliation for US actions. It's mindless in the sense that no sane person could think this level of killing of innocents has any strategic value

I'm gonna guess they're against it, what with them being a decent human being and all, no need to unnecessarily add more conflict to the conversation with leading questions you know the answer to.

Yeah I was waiting for this, always comes out like some kind of gotcha but just shows they haven't read the thread.

Don't disagree with the first part - just showing that the other perspective exists. It was indeed mindless slaughter, but the response has always been it was in retaliation to US foreign policy in the region - not just Palestine - and the controversies over the US military bases that ended up in Saudi and other Gulf states.

When questioned about the immorality of targeting civilians, a reminder was given over the lack of outcry of the US killing 500k children in Iraq in the 90s - and the whole moral argument of 500k children being worth less than 5k so-called 'complicit' adults; as well as the unwavering support for Israel's brutal plethora of injustices, violations of treaties and resolutions and targeting of civilians, etc. I could go on - but these were some of the main arguments given.

Wrong is wrong, but there is evidently a very foul public perception wherein a smaller number of (indeed wrongful) white, Western deaths is somehow more significant and valuable vs the mass slaughter and deliberate targeting of African, Arab, Palestinian and Muslim lives etc. - most often women and children too. And of course, how those same Western nations are somehow above international law and do what they wish, while the rest of the world shows more compliance and are more likely to be bullied into adherence.

What's going on today is not very different, but thankfully the world can plainly see who is on the wrong side of history here - the usual, hegemonic suspects.

Understand that I'm not being clear enough.

I'm trying to find the right language.

It comes across, to me, that your mentioning of the deaths over looks the fact we are talking of the acts of Al Q, who were the us/UK friends/allies. The reason why the attack happened was not in a bubble of some group of people (like the Manson family) deciding (being controlled) to commit acts.

I don't understand how you can support a country as Isreal, in its actions of stealing land from others and supporting this. While other countries do the same and off we go to war to stop them. Even down to the enforcement of un Resolutions against Israel, and there not easy and straight forward to get.

But there is the west's relationship with Saudi Arabia, is questionable.

Looking at the history of the whole area, is a lesson of us/UK fucking over the indigenous population.

Suspect my view is based upon my back ground and different history of being the fucked over.

Also would here be the thread to discuss Israel attempts to ethnically cleanse Jerusalem so that Israel can claim Jerusalem as the capital. As a reminder, the us moved it's Israel embassy to Jerusalem.

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The US supported them in the 80s during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

If you’d like to learn more, look up The Second Great Game for details on how the UK SAS trained Afghan guerrilla fighters in Scotland, or Operation Cyclone for how the US CIA funnelled millions to guerillas, including Bin Laden, in Afghanistan via Pakistan.

I don't understand how you can support a country as Isreal,

Please point to where I expressed support for the state of Israel.

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Sorry, my lack of clarity. I meant you as in plural, as in people. Suspect we would have been the better/more appropriate word.

You’ve hit on an oversight of mine. Yes, freedom fighters ≠ Al Qaeda; however, many of the freedom fighters that the US supported went on to found Al Qaeda.

https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/osama-bin-laden

So you’re correct the US didn’t officially support Al Qaeda; but they did support and train the people who would very soon after become Al Qaeda. Their hand in creating their own enemy was the point I was aiming at.

Think the the MP Robin Cook was correct https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/08/july7.development

Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook wrote that the word Al-Qaeda should be translated as "the database", because it originally referred to the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen militants who were recruited and trained with CIA help to defeat the Russians

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/itv-news-witnesses-man-in-group-waving-white-flag-shot-dead-in-gaza/f52nrfc

ITV news filmed a man holding a white flag being shot, seemingly by the IDF, yet the story seems to have been ignored by the rest of the British press. Stephen Flynn mentioned the incident today at PMQ's, but still it appears to have passed with little comment.

no sane person could think this level of killing of innocents has any strategic value

To some people it has huge strategic value. The Hamas leadership wants the killing of innocents on both sides to lead to an unstoppable war which eventually destroys Israel. Similar to Bin Laden's reasons for 9-11. It wasn't really about revenge for the presence of US soldiers in Saudi. Sure, that was one of his long list of grievances, but his strategic goal was to provoke a US invasion of the middle east. This would enable muslims from all over the world to participate in a jihad, defeat the US, overthrow the Saudi regime and destroy Israel. The end result would be a caliphate governed according to Sharia law.

There's an 18 year old Israeli conscientious objector called Tal Mitnick. He's been jailed for refusing to serve in the IDF and his sentiments are a tiny glimmer of hope: “More killing and more violence won’t bring back the lives lost on 7 October. I know people are hurt. Traumatised. But this doesn’t make anything better. To root out extremist ideas from Palestinian society, we must root them out in Israel. I want to stress I’m by no means the only one. There are other anti-occupation activists. People opting to not join the army. Peace campaigners, young and old." These quotes are from a long piece in the Guardian and it's well worth a read https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/23/israel-man-jailed-refuse-serve-idf-military-tal-mitnick-interview

When Netanyahu is forced out perhaps we'll hear more from Israeli peace activists.

It’s not the first time a white flag is being confused with kalashnikov by an IDF soldier.

No mention of today's judgement?

Or is it deemed antisemitic as it is against Israel?

Interested how some people are seeing it as a victory, while others a failure.