Israel / Palestine

In current news, totally normal non-genocidal things
https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1735080378904314285
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/12/13/civilians-sheltering-inside-a-gaza-school-killed-execution

they're actually all Nazis themselves

No-one called anyone a Nazi.

Was that the point I was making? No, go sit down.

people's reading comprehension really in the 🚽 today, huh

So to be clear - when you say that this is all Israel's fault and reject any attempt to apply even a little bit of nuance - that's not anti-semitic; but you think others are "assuming the worst of" the Palestinian people (which I don't think anyone has - they may have blamed Hamas though) and that's islamophobic?

On the same logic as you use, you're anti-Semitic. I doubt that's actually true, but then I don't think the other posters are islamophobic either

Was that the point I was making? No, go sit down.

Yes, you directly equated @user75580 's post with accusations of nazism. You also made a generalised and unfounded connection with anti- BLM sentiment. I don't think any one here is purposefully anti semitic, Islamophobic or racist. If someone says something that could be perceived as such, it's possible to point it out to them without this kind of inflammatory language, or telling them to "go sit down". I say all this while still respecting your views and your right to hold them.

Yes, you directly equated @user75580 's post with accusations of nazism

literally no I didn't. Go away troll. You're not welcome.

You're conflating Israel and Judaism. Same questions to you, why does Hamas exist idealogically and practically? Look in to those and you may find your answer. If you don't think Hamas exists as a response to decade of oppression but instead as some sort of innate Islamic radicalism then I'm afraid you're dancing with islamophobia

I'm not conflating the two - my exact point is that you are criticising Israel and don't see that as anti-semitic, but are accusing those who criticise Hamas as islamophobic.

In either case there's a distinction between the race and the organisation doing bad things, in both cases they expressly cite religion as part of their motivation and charter, and in both cases you can look at history for causes as to why they've got their (Israel as a reaction to longstanding persecution of Jews, Hamas as a response to the plight of Arabs in Palestine).

You could say "if you don't think the actions of Israel are a result of a valid fear of persecution following centuries of anti-Semitism but instead as some sort of innate colonialism then I'm afraid you're dancing with anti-Semitism"

my exact point is that you are criticising Israel and don't see that as anti-semitic, but are accusing those who criticise Hamas as islamophobic

No, I'm saying those that don't believe Hammas exists as a reaction to Israel's oppression are islamophobic.

You could say "if you don't think the actions of Israel are a result of a valid fear of persecution following centuries of anti-Semitism but instead as some sort of innate colonialism then I'm afraid you're dancing with anti-Semitism"

You could say that but you'd be wrong. That premise relies on Judaism = Israel and that Israel cannot exist without Palestine ceasing to exist.

I really don't think it does rely on that premise. It's pretty much as simple as the view that you state you think Hamas actions need to be seen in context of the history and situation in Palestine, but you don't seem to want Israel's actions to be seen in context of their history of persecution.

'Dancing with Islamophobia' wut

Ridiculous to deny that religious fundamentalism plays a huge part here. On both sides I might add.

So being historically persecuted excuses committing genocide and terrorism? Hamas apologist over here.

Once again, understanding does not equal approving. Check your prejudice at the door.

Religious fundamentalism doesn't grow in a vacuum. Al Qaeda, IS etc all grew hugely after being attacked/having an oppressed people. Ridiculous to write off 50 years of oppressions and apartheid being the cause of fanaticism because religion also exists.

You could say "if you don't think the actions of Israel are a result of a valid fear of persecution following centuries of anti-Semitism but instead as some sort of innate colonialism then I'm afraid you're dancing with anti-Semitism

To an extent yeah but you're ignoring the whole Zionist cause here.

Difficult to engage with you when the vibe you give off suggests that you think people with a different perspective to yours must be bigoted.

Were Hamas justified in their October attacks? To what extent is the religious fundamentalism demonstrated by Hamas a result of their persecution by the jews and to what extent is it a result of the jihadism? Genuinely curious how you see it.

Not even talking about the grossness of Israel's illegal settlements and typically overzealous retaliations or even zionism here, before you straw man me.

stick to watching Piers Morgan.

It could be worse. This is worth seeing.

I think you share a point of view with finkelstein about what it’s reasonable to expect from people who’ve suffered for generations. People turn to extremism when other options are closed down. Israel in the last 20 years has very much ensured that political options are closed down, the PA corrupted, Egypt under the thumb etc.

I’m not sure he actually expresses it here, but Finkelstein has spoken about his parents attitude towards Germans (for decades) after surviving the holocaust and how hatred is really human nature to be managed (I’m paraphrasing).

https://youtu.be/uHqs15gOv4k?si=NEHARQrM_KcUNPKm

israeli spin doctors / spokespersons are like
" won't someone think of the children " lost count of the number of times the one on radio 4 this morning mentioned israeli children in their interview, even mentioned her own kids, who i'm guessing are no where near the bloodshed and are never likely to be

imagine what they'd think when they find out the idf have been indiscriminately shooting young palestinian children for the last 20+ years
and currently indiscriminately bombing them

why won't they think of the children

Al Qaeda grew mostly from the CIA arming funding and double-crossing useful militia I think. Religious fundamentalism was a bolt-on and they were effectively shut down quickly after 9/11.

I get your point though.

Islamic state were a predictable result of the horror and chaos of the ‘War on Terror’. The Taliban in Afghanistan remain.

I think there's a lot of thinly veiled islamophobia going around. There seems to be quite a few people that view Palestinians are somehow deserving of being bombed in to the dirt because they did something horrible after half a century of living under apartheid.

It's possible to not excuse the response while understanding why it happened and maybe even making the leap of judgement that if you didn't oppress and terrorise 2 million people for 50 years, make it your government's clear objective to wipe them off the face of the earth, talk about them as animals etc etc. then maybe you wouldn't get the reaction.

And while we talk about it 20,000 civilians, half of which children have been murdered in cold blood. There's a literal ongoing genocide happening right now. Men getting rounded up, children shot in their schools, journalists getting tower blocks dropped on them and their whole family while we have people going "yeah but Hamas". Hamas wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Bibi let alone the aforementioned oppression. These people don't deserve this.

I was talking about Hamas' stated goal, not my own, not something I endorse.

Someone should go tell anyone who wrote an analysis on how Hitler came to power that they're actually all Nazis themselves.

You said this. ^

literally no I didn't. Go away troll. You're not welcome.

You could delete it if you want? I generally find this place has a mix of views, and debate is civil, and people with a range of backgrounds and opinions are welcome. So I'm going to stay, but thank you.

Were Hamas justified in their October attacks?

The 840 IDF soldiers who were killed were valid targets under international law I think. Of course that’ll be disputed by Isreal who doesn’t recognise the occupation.

I hadn't seen those numbers. The increasing popularity of Hamas and the way they are seen as the only hope for many Palestinians is indeed understandable. I've heard some commentators say the leaderships on both side can never be part of any peace deal after recent atrocities, but change on either side seems less and less likely. Israel using their own war crimes in Gaza to distract from increasing illegal activity in West Bank, which is actually empowering Hamas. I don't believe Israel's main aim is to defeat Hamas: they want to somehow prove all Palestinians are implicated in Hamas' crimes as an excuse to commit genocide. Article about current polling here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67695861

To what extent is the religious fundamentalism demonstrated by Hamas a result of their persecution by the jews and to what extent is it a result of the jihadism? Genuinely curious how you see it.

I'll answer your question with one of my own. If Israel had never been created, if the people of Palestine had lived their lives outside of an apartheid system and a religious war brought to their door step, would Hamas exist? Would a Palestinian government be declaring a peaceful neighbour as it's enemy? What if Israel had been created, given some land away from the existing towns and cities and not expanded beyond that. Would religious zealots be calling for their removal? Maybe a few not I'd bet not on the scale we see now. If you believe Islam will inherently create a militant arm calling for jihad then I'm afraid that's islamophobia.