Israel / Palestine

Correct, they’re short range ballistic missiles deployed on the tactical level. IIRC they can carry a miniaturised nuke and can go >Mach3, but ICBM’s are another ball game entirely.

Read a view sources and there were ICBM mentioned and that the missiles were scuds so thought that the two were the same.

So what were the missiles?

Edit Does it matter if the missiles were intercepted?

Maybe the Qader. They fired one of those last month. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghader_(missile)
https://archive.ph/ZxZit

As in the news, there was not just Hamas there, there were a few others groups. Hence the hostages being held by different groups.

Hamas is widely and naturally used as an umbrella term for the various terror groups as they are the largest are in control of Gaza

Also Israel have been raping and threatening rape against detainees and their families (arrested people but not charged, charges are very flimsy) families for years. There has even been an Isreali guard that was impressed for that. Just the one and israel did not announce the arrest, charges and imprisonment.

Disappointing but not surprising that one can't simply express horror at something without someone crying "yes but what about...". No atrocity justifies or diminishes another atrocity.

Seems strange that this news has appeared now, the timing is worrying to me.

Yes there are many voices justifiably asking why women have not been immediately believed. Sadly this has already been weaponised by Netenyahu.

There is so many bits of 'news' that seem to be untrue or backing up claims feels there is a pr war with the bigger budget winning.

Yes there is alot of misinformation. It's not helpful however to throw around vague statements attempting to discredit verified testimonies and footage without providing a source for your claim that these atrocities by Hamas (and other groups) were invented for "PR". It is equally grotesque to deny or minimise these atrocities as it is to deny the reality of children being killed by the IDF.

the reports about sexual violence around the 7th attacks are haunting, i hope we get a thorough investigation of these claims, much like all claims of sexual assault that have surfaced from israeli and palestinian citizens. when discussing sexual assault. especially in this context, it's helpful to have a broard and structural view of sexual assault and how it is often percieved, used and ignored. as it is, so emotive and traumatic, it often is not discussed. which only leads to the causes and triggers remaining an endemic, tabboo subject, only benefitting perpatrators, not victims. we should also be able to discuss these things without assuming it's deminishing something else.

anyone denying the existance of sexual assault in an event like this, in a conflict zone like this is grotesque. it's simply a matter of historical precident that sexual assault is a tool used directly or indirectly due to the dehuminising nature of conflict in all thearters, be it hamas launching an attack on israel or america in iraq. women all over the globe are often the targets of violence for many a force or invasion.

i think it's increasingly depressing that due to the israeli states history of being unreliable in conveying the motives, reasoning, extent, of violence targetted at them, be it sept 7 or prior, people are skeptical of believing if not the event, but the shape of the event. the attacks were horrific enough, but multiple cases have arose of massaged, or falsified evidence to provide further legitimisasion of their collective punishment bombing campaign. it doesn't help that much of what is coming from the state wrt to these new revelations is making those skeptical feel validated, be it due to israels destruction of evidence, seemingly blaming NGO's for not acting quick enough when they've been either shelled by israel, discredited, refused access or told they're in league with hamas, their womens minister who is not only a notorious racist, but historically uses sexual assaults as a method to be racist. the timing of this messaging release also raises eyebrows, yet again it's a government using their atrocity and citizens trauma as a deck of power cards they can deploy when they need coverage for their genocide in palestine.

these are a state manifestation of issues that prevent the prosecution, and persuit of justice for people sexually assaulted on a personal, day to day level, they're not unique to israel. nor does it mean the 1st party testomonies should be doubted, even with the states actions.

it also is amongst a frame work of palestinians reporting sexual assault and abuse not only in captivity following the 7th attacks, but prior in unconvicted detention. attacks which are often ignored internationally and due to the legal system and representation for palestinians, the very structure of apartheid they live under, are unable to be drawn out into the light. much like it comes to the deaths of palestinians and israelis, one is talked about as if it is our neighbour or family member, as it should, the other is talked about as if it's a statistic or an accident, in passive voice. intentionally ofcourse. no clearer does that come through than in these reports

i also think the way sexual assualt is used in propaganda is worth mentioning here, to many it's seen as a fate worse than death. both for its traumatic impact on a person, but also due to sexist and patrarchal views of the use of a womans body and our inability to seek justice for it. for this reason it has often been used to build consent for atrocities against people. a famous example of hillary clinton talking at legnth about mass rape in libiya to justify their war yet the UN, when left to investigate found no such evidence to support the claim. in this thread we already have the inevitable competition of what's worse, a dead woman or a seuxally assaulted one. this sort of propaganda is also especially effective when presented at a majority white audience, especially when the opposition is middle-eastern. because of these reasons, it's incredibly effective at providing cover, or building consent for equally, or more, violent crimes at a state level, such as the bombing, murder and displacement of innocent women, children and men. which are equally deplorable to the actions reported, every singly incident of it.

again, this is not to say the claims are not true, we have no indipendant investigation but we know, as outlined, it is present in conflict zones and their are witness reports which deserve to be treated with respect, it is to say that the reason it is presented to us, now, how it is presented, why it is presented, is for a specific point.

as a woman it's so painful to see sexual assault and reports of it so readily used and only talked about as a partisan issue. to see these reports is painful, to see western journalists indifference and the lack of access to justice palestinians have when reporting seuxal assault is painful, to see these traumatic, barbaric assaults of israeli's not get a thorough investigation because the exscuse to accelerate the destruction of gaza is too tempting, is painful. as a woman you're not only aware of the gravity of sexual assault, the impact it has, but also the gravity that so often it is ignored, that so often if you are believed comes from if believing you is useful or not to a man, the police, the state, who you are. then the justice you recieve is dependant on how these things benefit insittutions at large. events like this are no different.

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christina lambs investigation is the exact sort of reporting we need around this, agreed. independant journalists raising the voice of witness's and 1st hand accounts is crucial, she's great at what she does.

her report was particularly haunting to read.

here is a cnn report from today about the shooting of the disabled man I referred to yesterday. no comment was made on this because straight after another post was made which seemed to eclipsed mine in terms of the consideration it got.

i now feel bad that I posted what I did because I feel complicit in the way this person's humanity, so laid bare in the video and witness report, is 'swiped' over like an ugly grindr profile (or an uninteresting bike build). as I have commented on previously, i also feel uncomfortable with the masculinist way material is handled on here (whatever gender you are); so much 'cleverness', so much less pause for other kinds of response.

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Often people come here to post breaking stories of particular significance, without reading the whole thread first. Shocking events are unfolding and being discovered hour by hour.

It is up to readers to find and respond to particular stories if they wish to (or not). There will always be more information than anyone can process, that's not really new. I don't think you have been 'eclipsed' by 'masculinist' material or 'cleverness'.

Thank you, though, for posting a link to the CNN article. (Warning to others, it contains graphic images of serious injury). Posting links to sources is crucial, and this particular story you shared gives us an important if horrific insight into the IDF mentality.

evident murder is horrifying.

Story said wounded in the leg rather than killed. Still not that "just" wounding makes it okay or anything

i’m not trying to comment on my own sense of self-value, i’m trying to say i regret engaging with the format of the internet forum when it can so easily de-value others. the medium is the message, sort of thing. In this context, i also wanted to comment on the flavour of discussion; arguing over stuff, mansplaining. detailed and yet at the same time speculative discussion is fine, but it seems abstract and brutal from the point of view of witnessing the video (having just witnessed it at the time). i am honestly not offended, it would be ridiculous to be in this context, i feel. however i am asking for people to see this from my point of view (utterly partial as it is) where i was thinking ‘poor man and how awful this is going on’ only for it to get lost in the stream. a person obviously can’t dictate how they will be received but i think my view is that i would rather less argument, less explanations, and more reflection- ultimately on where humanity is. BUT, this is the point, i should know that the internet is not that place so it was my mistake posting.

and more reflection

I think people sometimes do this bit but it's not always a stream of consciousness onto the forum, I certainly read the post and thought it was awful but with the amount of shit going on, if everyone posted "I feel bad about this" on every bad post things would get even further buried.

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That too is my reasoning

This is pretty big. Guterres Calls on all UN members to join him in clling for a urgent ceasefire, invoking article 99. Happened yesterday (6th), was reported widely today in media. Wonder what it will change. Israelis will continue to call the UN antisemitic I suppose.

https://twitter.com/antonioguterres/status/1732457928496496793

Shamefully the UN Women's agency has remained silent on it.

Not silent. There was a statement a week prior to your post.

The Independent investigation the UN would like is probably not happening because all access to testimony and evidence is restricted. Isreal say they are conducting their own.

So yes whilst Netanyahu calls publicly for condemnation and investigation, he blocks independent investigation.

‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

This is a really well sourced and detailed assessment of past and current target generation by the IDF.

That is a big flag to me.

There is tension between risk of accidentally parroting half-truths/propaganda and being silent/ignoring survivors.

I feel so little trust in anything coming via Israeli gov’ managed sources I’ll believe nothing until verified.

Following Israel’s line and shitting on the UN in this context is just mental. I’m amazed people are falling for it.

I feel so little trust in anything coming via Israeli gov’ managed sources

But nothing is coming to you direct from Israeli gov sources, it's coming from the BBC, CNN, NYT, ITN and many other professional media which have decades of experience of unpicking IDF and Israeli govt lies.

Hamas' denials of this are feeble and muted. All they've said is that rape is forbidden in Islam. Even if it's all invented, I think Hamas wants you to believe it. The more worrying question is how our perception of these horrors supports Hamas' goals. Too many people are hung up on arguing which side is worse and agonising about which flags and slogans are acceptable. We need to step back and look at Hamas' actions as part of a carefully crafted 10+ year strategy. There are parallels with Bin Laden who planned 9/ll to provoke a US invasion of a muslim country, which would fail and bring about the collapse of the US and the rise of the caliphate. He had a great deal of success. Sinwar (what a perfect name) wants to use US-Islam relations as a springboard to conquering Israel. It seems to me that he's timed this war to coincide with the US elections. The Houthi rebellion is another strand of the plan. Maybe he thinks he can engineer a US invasion of Iran? The sexual mutilation horrors are key to this, because they help Trump to get elected on his Islam-is-evil ticket. Breasts being cut off, real or imaginary, are one of Sinwar's ways of getting US aircraft carriers to bomb Muslims and unite the middle east to overrun Israel. We are all being manipulated towards that goal. Israeli right wingers see this as an immediate risk. Culling the Palestinian population is an obvious defensive move.

I suggest you focus on the outlets which have a history of giving the IDF a hard time, e.g. C4 News and Al Jazeera, neither of which have covered this story yet, presumably because they want to check it with independent witnesses. I can guarantee you they have people working flat out to uncover any deception by Israel. If they found any evidence it would be a massive, career-making story which they would shout from the rooftops.

Make a habit of watching C4 News, both the broadcast stuff and the online only stuff which they plug on twitter. If you are pushed for time you can trust them and ignore everyone else. It will make you feel much better.

Unsurprisingly, more evidence that Israeli forces are actively targeting journalists, especially those who have been or might be critical of them.

https://www.reuters.com/world/israeli-tank-fire-killed-reuters-journalist-issam-abdallah-lebanon-2023-12-07/

But nothing is coming to you direct from Israeli gov sources, it's coming from the BBC, CNN, NYT, ITN and many other professional media which have decades of experience of unpicking IDF and Israeli govt lies.

Well said, and well reasoned around the attempt to start a wider conflict. Hamas are a death cult, much like Al Quaeda and Isis. They want more conflict, more war and more death. They do not give a fuck about Palestinian children.

Even if it's all invented,

For anyone still entertaining this, worth listening to Christina Lamb on the Media Show yesterday. She has investigated these types of crimes in conflicts around the world. Continued minimising or denial at this stage would start to seem insidious. Lamb aknowledges the huge amounts of misinformation and propaganda on both sides, and the rife and unhelpful whataboutery. (titled to be about Lockerbie, Lamb section comes first)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001t3fz

They do not give a fuck about Palestinian children

They can be martyred in the service of Palestine. It's an honour for them.

Grim. So hard to see how people can retain any humanity, and look for dialogue and peace in the face of this.