Israel / Palestine

Northern Ireland has already been mentioned in this thread, as has (many times) the British mandate Palestine.

I don't think anyone here is holding up Britain as occupying any moral high ground.

Just the confusing, occasionally indecipherable, rambling nature of some of your posts. It makes it awkward to agree or disagree with a point if you don't seem to have one.

Through humour, he makes the point well about. Think he is performing at the leister square theater in November.

Additional - my people took you scum from out of your mud huts.....and civilized you. ;)

Yep and if you sympathise with the locals, as I believe the first settlers were, then the new settlers were replaced.

Yeah, I'm not.

I thought I did.

Will go on a bigger screen and look back at the posts.

With the whole area, I look and see a country created with out consideration for this who were there. Well the locals points of view were not considered relevant, even going as far as what was promised to the locals was not upheld.

Second is speaking out against Israel's actions of invasion, murder, and false imprisonment are not antisemitism/anti semetic.
Also that Israel has committed many war crimes (as confirmed by the UN observers) and human rights abuses since Israel was created. Yet pointing out the actions gets you labelled as anti semetic.

The quid pro quo is well established

Israel gets: unashamed cover for its continued apartheid / settler / genocidal project

The West gets: a well armed, reliable ally in a strategically important and traditionally volatile region

The Nixon administration referred to Israel as “one of the cops on the beat” in the Middle East, and not much has changed since.

Senior UN official resigns over UN inacton.

The European, ethno-nationalist, settler colonial project in Palestine has entered its final phase

As a complete fucking layman and atheist, it strikes me that Islam is a "newer" religion and that it hasn't had time to go through a reformation.

Christianity went through one 500 years ago, Islam is 610 years "younger" than Christianity. Then again Judaism is 3500 years old and there are still too many "fire and brimstone" proponents it would seem within Israel.

This is something that's very live on our local nursery and parental WhatsApp chats. It permeates in all sorts of ways - one secular friend is looking at schools and was considering a religious school as its good. Now that they'd have to wear a yarmulke is a factor in the decision.

It has always been generally depressing how much security public Jewish spaces have - we went to a birthday party in the school hall of a Jewish school and even at the weekend you still have security. Likewise the nursery I walk past to get to the station has always had security. But it suddenly feels a lot more live.

^^ That's a bit basic.

As with Christianity there is not one sect. As with Christianity a huge number are cultural Muslims and not especially devout.

In terms of Israel, plenty of extremists are non-religious. The Zionist project does not have religion at its roots.

hasn't had time to go through a reformation.

I reckon that such past events are only very loosely linked to the here and now. The reformation is of little consequence when you see US Christian fundamentalists turning their backs on basic science in an effort to bolster in group loyalty.

Most of them turning their back on actual Christian teachings too tbh

Zionism is less than 200years old...quite young in religion terms.

Also religions change and alter depending on the charismatic leaders but still claim to be under the same banner.

It is seen as selective interpretation;)

Call me naive, but the article struck it home - to me - that there are everyday normal people, like you and me, in support of what Israel (the state) is doing.

Or that’s what I infer.

Yes there are, and I have issue with them.

I think the latest Ezra Klein show has some interesting stuff to say on this area. https://open.spotify.com/episode/73Swv9mL6FhQB4pwDBKouS?si=Vc3GbrsQR1i4SgwD8EHXJw

I'm not sure support is always that black and white. I can well imagine there is still a lot of grief and "something needs to be done" emotions. It's not something I've brought up with our Jewish friends as I have very strong views on Israel's actions past and present. So we've just tried to be supportive to them as people and know we're here.

I think this is all you can do [for Jewish friends] if you happen to be looking in from the outside. IMO.

As a complete fucking layman and atheist, it strikes me that Islam is a "newer" religion and that it hasn't had time to go through a reformation.

Or it didn't need a Protestant-style one for most of its history, because the relationshp between religion and state wasn't the same as it was the Christianised Roman Empire and its successors. Complex topic.

Judaism is 3500 years old and there are still too many "fire and brimstone" proponents it would seem within Israel.

Islam and Judaism both saw changes in the 20th century that have no comparison to the history of Christianity.

In Islam, the fundamentalist schools, now dominant in Saudia Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan,were fringe movements for most of the religion's history. But c19 and c20 saw the collapse of the last big Islamic empires, with Western colonial powers taking over most of the Muslim world and all of its most sacred sites. Fundamentalists moved into the power vacuum, are the loudest voices and the only thing most in the West even know about the religion.

Loud "fire and brimstone" teaching also not much of a Rabbinical thing, for very practical reasons among others, before the recreation of Israel. That, and the holocaust that led to it, have created new phenenomena.

Religions don't follow a neat, common set of changes.

Not much fire and brimstone in the Torah...not even a devil and satan means different things.

Also of the sects of Judaism that I know of the idea was where ever you go be fruitful. Zionism had a different basis.

"fire and brimstone" is very much a presbyterian thing surely (along with a proud history of secession and schism). The descendents of Jenny Geddes still have a morbid fear of episcopal practise.

You will burn in hell, doesn't work if there is no hell.

The Judaisms idea of what happens in the after life is interesting to me.

Predetermination helps keep the devout free of such doubt.

Detail is important though I'm not sure this threads descent into historical analysis into the construing of comparative religious validity has actual bearing on the current situation

It's about land, security, and statehood today.

The settlers have created new facts on the ground to make 2 states almost impossible as displacing these illegal yat tacitly supported enclaves doesn't seem viable. (The removal of the fewer jewish Gaza settlements under Oslo were tough enough.)

Hamas still wants one state, not a one state solution but a one state final solution, making jews a minority in a hostile state, or
worse.

The right wing Israeli government wants to destroy Hamas, the more extreme want their final solution too

The moderate fatah, and perhaps the palestian majority will tolerate a 2 state solution if it brings peace and an ease of life.

As perhaps do the moderate Israelis

As ever the power desperate leaders on many sides want to shore up their power whatever the cost.

Whatever happens next will happen as, (as Yuval Noah Harrari says) will happen because there's no room for empathy on either side in this tragedy.

It's on us to hold an understanding of the pain and existential crisis of both sides and ready ourselves to be there when the time comes