Israel / Palestine

@GeneralStrike personally, I agree that religious arguments often reach dead ends because I lack the faith required to continue the arguments. Nevertheless, people that posses the requisite faith do exist and will continue the arguments so long as their faith remains and they continue to perpetuate it to subsequent generations.

Idk what I'm saying anymore, this whole topic is really making my brain into spaghetti. The more you know, the less you know and all that.

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One can view Islam as the successor to Christianity...

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This level of ignorance and reductionism is astonishing....

This is arguably a self-description of the Islamic faith. Not necessarily worded perfectly, but its a short post on a cycling forum not a textbook.

References:
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/islam-first-and-last-religion-mansour-leghaei
Al-Biruni's work
and of course Wikipedia

When he was about 40 years old, he began receiving at mount Hira' what Muslims regard as divine revelations delivered through the angel Gabriel, which would later form the Quran. These inspirations urged him to proclaim a strict monotheistic faith, as the final expression of Biblical prophetism earlier codified in the sacred texts of Judaism and Christianity;

I edited the above as my reply was too ad-hominem.
The post regarding your studies seems out of character, and my inclusion of it in my reply added nothing.

This is also quite a good description of the history and issues in the Middle East.

'One can view Islam as the successor to Christianity'

this is what I was taught growing up (as a muslim). not saying it's correct, but this is what we were taught.

Show some respect. The man has a record of academic to post-graduate study levels on the history, culture, and religions of the middle Antiquity to the late Middle east, and has also extensively in the region. You should try not to centre yourself in these issues.

Respect...are you new here?

Seems to be saying that islam is the new improved washes whiter cristianty...

Have read a bit, and am fascinated by how many religions have similar stories such as Noah/Gilgamesh

For clarity I am Roman Catholic, the label never gets removed...tho I am agnostic. But not sure. The Jesuits had me till 7 ;)

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3,200 children.
How can anyone support this?
How can our government abstain from a UN resolution?
What disgusting cowards we have in ‘power’. Lily-livered wastes of flesh.
I try and be level headed, but these figures are beyond comprehension.
The longer the allowance the more bold Netenyahu, that abhorrent illusion of a man, becomes.
More than the annualised death toll of children in war zones.
In 3 weeks.

3,200…
I apologise for an abnormally emotional post. I can’t always be rational.

I came here to say the same but with less coherence

3,200 of the most innocent lives extinguished. This is an abomination.

Just to say we will remember this time when our countries and US support of Israel will radicalise more youth.

EDIT To make this clear, I think the UK gov and US actions with Israel will lead to the increased radicalisation of the
youth. To the point of expect more attacks on the UK US because of this. I can really see why.

Experts soothsayers.....

Let’s make sure to distinguish here: it’s not support of Israel that’s the problem; the problem is support of Israeli governments’ ongoing genocidal policies against a population that had their lived-on land taken from them and given away by imperialist countries.

There are assuredly millions of Israelis and Jewish people around the world who are disgusted as we are. They, like us, don’t call the shots.

There are assuredly millions of Israelis and Jewish people around the world who are disgusted as we are. They, like us, don’t call the shots.

This gets lost. Sometimes deliberately. Like on 7 October, which was an atrocity.

Netanyahu is now conflating all the Palestinians in Gaza with Hamas. He’s ordered the deaths of far more than were killed on 7 October. That’s shaping up to be an even bigger atrocity.

Conflating innocent civilians with their warmongering overlords just feeds the cycle. Let’s not do that.

The support of Israel and it's actions. These actions have been going on for twice the length of my life.

All that I can see is the more you steal and kill the more people are prepared to sacrifice their life in might as well die fighting than asleep under a bulldozer.

Elected war mongering overlords....oh and who is allowed to vote in those elections?

We voted for Blair...and Thatcher and that is in my life time.

Oh I'm radicalized against the board of British deputies of British Jews. As many Jews seem to be too. So not sure if that counts.

Okay, so by your logic 7/7 was justified because some of the people on those tube trains might have voted for Blair?

Get a grip.

Since October 7, 2023, there have been

• confirmed 8,131 Palestinians killed, equates to 1 Palestinian civilian killed every 4 minutes since the Hamas attacks

• thousands of Israeli government bombs dropped on civilian homes, places of worship, hospitals…

• United Nations recognised international war crimes committed by the Israeli government

• use of white phosphorus munitions, incendiary weapons, banned under international law used by Israeli government

• Collective punishment, a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts

• cutting off of food, water, gas, and electricity, which is not in accordance with international law

• Forcible transfer a crime against humanity by the International Criminal Court

@Leshaches @h2o
Of course is is self-evident- from polls within Israel, the existence of Haaretz, that Israelis do not all agree with Netenyahu's brigade. That Jewishness and Israeli citizenship could ever be conflated is absurd to me, but is an incendiary device used by both sides equally abhorrently. For example-the Israeli narrative of defence is predicated on a weaponisation of a justified, historic and continued, sentiment of an existential threat to Judaism and the Jewish people. History shows us clear evidence of the random spikes of anti-semitism, from the 1200s in England, to the Holocaust, to Synagogue bombings. The Israeli UN Ambassador pinning a yellow Star of David onto his chest is emblematic of this. As this continues- the lines between the 3 separate entities (Israel, Israeli, Jewish) effectively diminish in the eyes of already prejudiced people.
As in Shatz' article (and many others) this leads to a reduction in safety for Jewish people globally, as can be seen in some of the abhorrent racist acts that are occurring.
(the same racism is present against Arabs and Muslims- but thats not the point of today's diatribe)
Thus we have an end result of blurring of Jewishness<->Israel which serves no-one.

Secondly, on the note of ascribing support to Israelis vs Israel- I would argue that external support of Israel is inherently supportive of the military action-and has moved beyond support of the Israeli people- with "ridding of Hamas" narrative predominating, regardless of what that means in practice.
This is backed up by polls in the US, as well as the UK (with less % favourability): [yes the poll is outdated]

SSRS/CNN found that 50 percent of Americans thought the Israeli government’s military response was fully justified, and another 20 percent thought it was partially justified. And a YouGov/The Economist survey from Oct. 14-17 found that only 18 percent of Americans thought the Israeli government’s response has been too harsh; 32 percent thought it was about right, and 22 percent thought it was not harsh enough.

This is both similar in narrative structure to the "War On Terror", and explicitly reflected by governmental support. From Biden's "unwavering" support, Braverman's policies, Sunak and Starmers spinelessness, and refusal or abstention in the UN to press for ceasefire is complicity in the current genocide purported by Israel.

As such, as much as we would like to be able to say:
I support the Israeli and Palestinian people's right to peace and safety", the message now being put forward, and evidentially supported is "Israel must rid Gaza of Hamas, regardless of cost".
And that cost- will hurt Palestinians now, Israelis tomorrow, and Jewish people in the future.

On the question of support, one thing that always baffles me is the lack of a quid pro quo.

Why for e.g. is it not contingent on preventing settler expansion, or ensuring that displaced people (even if only the most recent) have right to return?

Expanding on above-my fears are the seeming inevitable expansion, first to Lebanon or the West Bank, with the same edict “Hamas must be eradicated at any cost” will be used (replace Hezbollah for Hamas for Lebanon), to justify actions.

The saddest irony of ironies- if we see shift in the wrong, inevitable, direction - Gazans were significantly growing tired of Hamas- in a poll that completed on the 6th of October this year c 70% said they had little to no trust in Hamas.
73% wanted a peaceful solution to the conflict, and c 15% supported military approaches.

As that article points out this is now likely to change, as history shows that popularity for Hamas only grows in reaction to military action of Israel.

TL;DR- it feels increasingly inevitable that, buoyed by the seeming lack of opposition internationally , Israel will expand its operations, citing the same lie of “ridding Hamas” as they are now.

I think you can go a step further. Why are the US and UK governments among others supporting a genocide in real time.
https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1718964853463802055
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWRE3x6pjqA

I heard what I think was a great synopsis on the creation of Palestine on The Rest Is History podcast:

PAX Romano Extract

It's sad to think that people are killing and dying thousands of years later over drawing of boarders.

Imagine if all states charged war in order to return to the boarders of AD 200, what would the world look like.