Israel / Palestine

Screams train pusher to me.

‘From the river to the sea’ is not Hamas’ slogan. It’s an old PLO slogan and is around 60 years old. It’s not a call for the obliteration of Israel and the line that this is some kind of hugely antisemitic slogan is horseshit.

https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/from-the-river-to-the-sea-is-a-call-to-genocide/

Projecting genocidal intent onto even the mildest calls for justice for Palestinians

May be wrong but I thought recently Hamas had adopted it - presumably because it's already popular.

Do agree with this though -

Projecting genocidal intent onto even the mildest calls for justice for Palestinians

MRDA

It does suggest driving Jewish people out of Israel though, doesn't it? It's suggesting that Israel shouldn't be there at all. Which I think is at least potentially problematic. Unless your view is that Palestinians should be able to call for Israelis to be removed (when I don't think any of us would think it's ok for Israelis to call for Palestinians to be driven out)

It does suggest driving Jewish people out of Israel though, doesn't it?

No it doesn’t.

It's suggesting that Israel shouldn't be there at all

No, it isn’t

It only works this way if you conflate the idea of a free Palestine with the destruction of the state of Israel. Which, I can see why some would be motivated to do that.

Remind me, what was PLO’s objectives 60 years ago?

I recall that it included: complete elimination of Israeli sovereignty in Palestine and the destruction of the State of Israel

I know it has changed since 1993, with aims to be accepted in international politics, so ‘From the river to the sea’ may have been used less by PLO and more by those who have more extreme views.

Specifically I think it called for “"one democratic secular state that would supersede the ethno-religious state of Israel."

Which, tbh, sounds like the only remaining viable solution to this horrific mess.

Creating a popularly elected secular state in a place saturated with religious fanatics from innumerable strands of faith, many of whom have hated each other for generations, and they all want to call the shots… Doesn’t seem viable, honestly.

No less fantastical than a two state solution given the reality on the ground imo

That website that supports your viewpoint seems a bit iffy..

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I find it odd how you seem to think that the concern of Israelis that there are some who want them not to be there at all is supposedly only ever in bad faith, whilst at the same time you assume that the most benign view of slogans etc such as this must be right

... have hated each other for generations .... Doesn’t seem viable, honestly.

Britain went from massacring Indian civilians to having a brown guy as a PM within (just over) a hundred years. All kinds of change is possible if you only give it a go.

I find it odd how you seem to think that the concern of Israelis that there are some who want them not to be there at all is supposedly only ever in bad faith

Lol, please demonstrate where I have ever said this. Obviously there are many bad actors on the Palestinian side who hold abhorrent views that Israelis have a right to be concerned about.

Lol please tell me what is iffy about this collection of basic factual statements.

The Palestinian Authority is widely regarded as corrupt and ineffectual, not just by Palestinians but by the wider world. The PA’s security co-operation agreement with the Israeli govt is broadly unpopular with Palestinians (lol, I wonder why) and that fact is also acknowledged widely.

Fair enough, it was an insinuation ("I can see why some would be motivated to do that") rather than an express statement. I think lots of people honestly have the view that's what it means, including more or less every Jewish view I've found.

I’ve seen this website used as a reference loads of times in reference to the ‘From the river to the sea’ and why it’s ok to say it.

Only page on the first page on Google that does, from what I can see.

It’s quite catchy and also very triggering for Israel and Jewish people, which is probably the point.

Maybe the number of people in London who mean it in the destruction of Israel way is quite few, but in some of the more extreme Muslim countries, I’m not so sure…

That website doesn't provide any basis for these statements (other than internal links). The website is essentially anonymous. No mention of how it's funded either. Patreon only gets you so far.

In terms of horseshit this is my favourite section. It's not aged well.
https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/palestinians-use-human-shields/

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Ah, so you acknowledge these are factual statements, but your objection is that they’re not footnoted properly?

I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore.

He acknowledged them as statements, not that they were factual.

The Palestinian Authority is widely regarded as corrupt and ineffectual, not just by Palestinians but by the wider world.

I could say: The Conservative Party is widely regarded as corrupt and ineffectual, not just by the British, but by the wider world.

Is that a factual statement? The widely regarded part might be me exaggerating how many like minded friends I have.

Backing up your statements in this time of misinformation and intense propaganda is more important than ever. I don’t think asking for references and checking the credibility of the website and sources is a bad thing to ask.

A one state solution is antisemitic now?

Someone should tell the NYT magazine as they’re still hosting Edward Said’s One State Solution and they probably don’t want to be publishing hate speech

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/10/magazine/the-one-state-solution.html

The PA has not been viewed as a legitimate representation of Palestinians by most Palestinians throughout its history. Not sure what to tell you.

Just google “Palestinian authority corrupt” and note how many standard sources of authority there are in the results saying “yeah, the Palestinian authority is corrupt af’. It’s an established fact that Abbas and co are grafters. If I say the sky is blue I don’t have to provide references FFS.

Tbh if you aren’t aware that the PA is corrupt and that that fact is widely understood - and by Palestinians in particular - then you should consider being embarrassed by your ignorance.