Israel / Palestine

You have written what I thought.

Hence my clarification of military service between Italian and Greece compared to Israel.

Nah easily solvable - the arrival of the Messiah, the rapture, shiva destroying the world feel free to insert your deity of choice and what happens on their arrival.

Well yes, it is a massive simplification, in response to someone wondering why a ‘home’ for Jewish people should have even been made there.

If you had a large population of displaced aboriginal people, there would be a strong argument for them to be allowed to go back ‘home’ to Australia.
And similarly if you had a large population of displaced Native American tribes, there is an argument for them to have a home in America.

I wasn’t arguing for anyone to be evicted, I think everyone should live together in harmony and be able to exist in peace without fear of being killed or losing their homes.
Our countries borders are drawn by thousands of years of fighting over territory, resources, religion, empires growing, collapsing, new countries being made, being wiped out, so arguing whether someone belongs somewhere depends on who currently possesses (though historically violent methods) the land.

If Israel had a weaker military and was less aggressive and no support from the US, it most likely would not exist right now. Maybe that would be a great outcome, as they wouldn’t be bombing Gaza and causing a huge humanitarian crisis.
On the other hand, we would be instead concerned about the welfare and plight of the Jewish people, I wonder if that has happened before…

You ok bro?

From that user, not surprised

I’ve been told many times in the past to go back to where I came from, so apparently for some people, my ‘homeland’ is somewhere that’s not here.

Maybe the 20th century is too far back in history now, but my dad was born in Busan during the Korean War, and my grandparents are from slightly north of the 38th Parallel. And prior to that they lived through the Japanese occupation.
So depending on how the wars played out, and various lines drawn, my ‘homeland’ could have been Japan, or North Korea.

As it is, I’m fortunate to have been able to choose to be British, not sure I retain much 19th century ideology, other than my favourite Queen Victoria porcelain tea set.

I think ‘homeland’ was too loaded a word to use.

You’re right, I’m just a simple user, trying to make sense of a horrible complex (or complicated? I didn’t see how the forum ruled on this) situation.

Trying to understand things from both sides, which I think means I’m put on the other side?

You're still treating this as some equally 2 sided war, it's not and it never has been. One side has people who literally can't even drill a well without the permission from the others army, can't walk on certain streets, have to pass through checkpoints to get to school or temple, can be detained or killed for no reason at any time with no repercussions, and the other has a $23bn a year army keeping them under the thumb. Maybe when Gaza has been completely raized you'll realise

Even buying the "they had that land originally" bullshit, for one it's trying to excuse literal genocide and it's a flimsy claim anyway. There was a Jewish settlement in 1000bc, there was others before and after it in the same place, by the same logic current day Egyptians or Iraqis have a better claim to it.

There are much more recently established nation states, and newly established borders, that have not caused the levels of conflict we see in Palestine. It's irrelevant which religion was dominant in the region first, or which ethnic group. "Ethnicity" really only refers to a few entirely superficial differences between people. Alot of Israelis and Palestinians are ethnically the same people as has been mentioned upthread. Any state, however recently or long-established its population, can be victim to populist nationalism. People move around all the time, our imagined national borders are always in flux. Certainly the western obsession with imposing borders on other places has made some conflicts worse.

The hatred between Israelis and Palestinians is concocted and stirred up by nationalist leaders to retain power. Both Hamas and Netenyahu's gvt are equally guilty of conditioning their people to hate another group of people. It's brainwashing. Hating the people of either country for being brainwashed won't help. It's horrifying to hear people in the IDF talk in racist overtones. And equally sad to hear Gazan citizens defending, minimising or denying the brutality of Hamas. all of these people are trapped in a cycle of violence. There but for the grace of God etc

I think unfortunately that is part of securing your land and claim to it now and in the future.

Indeed, oppression and genocide are an integral part of settler colonialism, just as in the settling of the US, Australia, and many other examples. 'Securing your land and claim' doing a lot of work here.

You're still treating this as some equally 2 sided war, it's not and it never has been.

They're not, they're just holding more than one view in their head at once and thinking about them out loud without agreeing or condoning them.

In case anyone things I'm being facetious about gaza being razed
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes

and the other has a $23bn a year army keeping them under the thumb.

Not to mention that Foreign Military Funding (FMF) from the US requires the recipient to spend the money on US-manufactured weapons (Israel has some leeway on this apparently). And not to mention the expensive "toys" Israel gets to try out, e.g. the first success of the PATRIOT system in the field was by Israeli Air Defence Command. Israel is just another sandbox in which powerful western stakeholders can subsidise and test weapon systems. Truly revolting practice.

there was others before and after it in the same place

For real. I’m finding the ‘homeland’ argument more asinine every time someone repeats it. The “original” Jewish people weren’t the only tribe in their neighbourhood, let alone all of modern day Israel.

I always took go back to where you came from to be your mother's vagina. Or to fuck off to back to where you were before you were here.

Am I being niave ;) oh this was genuine.

history of this conflict has been batted around alot, when you read into some of the earliest conflicts such as the 6 day war, at least in retrospective you can see how the threat posed by surrounding nations to israel was fabricated/exagerated/manafactured and used as cover to sure up the israeli states border expansion. this is not really coming from left wing foreign commentators either, but israeli primeministers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALJqE1nf2yw

fairly nuanced video here covers this, the original is available too but hasans analysis is routinely v good,, but as with all links on a bike forum about international conflicts do your own reading.

this is important because it seems, with the backing from the US positioning warships and hitting targets to neighbour states, israel is repeating this strategy. anyone drawn into thinking this is a religious or historic conflict is being lead down the garden path and should probably focus more on speaking and listening to a broard range of israeli citizens and jewish people themselves, but also palestinians who live under the occupation, their own views of their family history and their successive governments. this is a modern conflict, backed by major western powers to keep both a heavily funded and armed western power base in the region while also continuing to destabalise its neighbours for their own gains.

israeli government officials have made no secret that they wish to forcibly remove palestinian people from the gaza strip and force them into neighbouring states or into a smaller piece of land (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/foreign/israeli-fm-gaza-territory-shrink-after-war). this is essential as it's so densly populated the government backed illegal settlement program doesn't work like they're currently operating in the westbank, where there is no hamas government, just kids with stones, yet palestinians are airstriked and fired upon regardless, by idf troops and armed malitia alike (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1207933378/palestinian-deaths-in-the-occupied-west-bank-are-escalating).

what happened in the attack on the 6th was horrific, cowardly murder of civilians. but this history does not start on the 6th. the israeli state has been purposefully/inadvertedly creating terrorist groups (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ much like the us did with osama / alqueda) to justify their own expansion plans since their inception. this is not unique to israel, america and the uk did the same to justify their destabalisation and destruction within iraq and afghanistan, the UAE has been doing this within syria and yemen for decades, russia is doing it in ukraine. this is how modern warfare is constructed, and i think many people here are disgusted by it, we should be disgusted by it here too.

less we go back to the time of the afghanistan invasion, where we're told osama binladen lives in an intricate palace of caves which conviniently looks like the lair of a bond villain (https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/tora-bora-tunnel-kingdom-wasnt-lessons-fake-news (link purely for convinience)). the time where we adopted "military aged male" so we would no longer have to report the deaths of those who looked over 18 in the statistics we sent back home and increase the effectiveness of hits on paper. how we were told endlessly of the "precision" of guided missile strikes (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/president-obamas-weak-defense-of-his-record-on-drone-strikes/511454/), which precisely flattend entire city blocks and the infrastructrure of iraq and afghanistan causing the displacement, killing and maiming of hundereds of thousands, leaving local citizens to pick up the pieces and become reliant on local militias.

military intervention by lockheed armed states does not make civilians safer, it does not make jewish or muslim people safer, be it in the states of israel and palestine, or the wider populations globaly. any thearter of war should teach us this. what lead to the events of the 6th was a security failure, something that israeli citizens agree on and hold their primeminister accountable for (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/most-israelis-think-netanyahu-responsible-failing-prevent-hamas-attack-poll-2023-10-20/), what is happening now in palestine however, is the flattening of gaza, the killing of thousands of palestinians, children, women, men, it isn't correcting that security failure, it's collective punishment and an exscuse to accelerate the parliaments goals of removing palestinian people.

israeli citizens have the right to peace and access to an unbothered life like anyone else, but so do palestinians, the quickest way to achieve this is by stopping the aprteid of palestinian people within israel, the westbank and gaza, just like it was in south africa. achieving this comes from putting pressure on our own states to stop the arming and investment into allowing it to continue and making the continuation untennable for israels allies and bring them to the negotiating table. it also comes from calling on our government to stop sending military intervention to the middle east in any capacity, be it on the books or off it. importantly, it also comes from educating ourselves on the conflict so we can feel confident in making these arguments. we should also be confident in opposing any antisemitism or islamaphobia which stems from such a loaded discussion, there is no exscuse for it.

i don't really expect this to change anyones mind here, but in case anyone is passing through this thread i thought i'd contribute some links that people could use to make their own investigation, and maybe link it to touchstones they're more familiar with to orientate themselves if it's their first time looking into it. i'm not jewish, israeli, palestinian, or muslim, i'm just an agnostic white woman from the uk, my heart goes out to anyone affected either directly from the terrorist attacks on israel, the occupation of palestine, or jewish and muslim members of the forum here who are fearful for themselves or loved one in the face of rising antisemitism and islampaphobia. what we're seeing unfold is the actions of power hungry states, it's the civilians of any adjacency which get caught in the impact.

Double posted for some reason.

Thanks for sharing

Quotation marks (") below are from the BBC live feed. (<>) are from this thread.

It is shocking that there is no mention of the complete silence imposed on Gaza during the impending full-scale invasion.

I hope it's because those seeking to justify inhumane methods-on either side- have developed some introspection.
For others, I suspect a complete sense of disbelief now spreads, and the realisation that we will see unimaginable devastation over the coming hours.
Destruction carried out in complete freedom to be violent.
Buoyed by an unfathomable, continued support from the West for indiscriminate bombing, starvation and crippling health services and preventing aid from reaching civilians.

I suspect a few will still cling to the belief that Israels claims are true.
That a "hospital is the base of Hamas operations", and accept that the destruction of the people within that hospital is accepted in the theatre of war.
That "Human Shields" are being used by Hamas.
That Hamas has already killed the hostages prior to the ground attack- despite documented reports from the hostages suggesting that some semblance of care was provided.
(too little, too late- of course- the acts should not have happened).

-Let me be clear again- the actions of Hamas were abhorrent, unfathomable to me as a Palestinian. Just the basest, worst form of inhuman barbarism and there are no words I can espouse for my sadness and disgust-

Some will cling to a belief that all Palestinians want the destruction of Israel. A fact that my own posts should make perfectly clear is not true.
Most of us just want the chance to have a prosperous economy, a homeland to exist.
This embodiment of a people in diaspora should be understandable, as it is a mirror of Israeli hopes at the creation of Israel. How we keep losing sight of our commonality perplexes me.

However, we know and fear what the re-connection of services will bring.
Unimaginable devastation, and no documentation, no counter-narrative, no means of fact-checking claims.
The sort of thing that was previously confined to history- where the victor writes, and the oppressed voices die.

For me- the convenience of being a displaced people is that my direct family have been safe as we lost our home a long time ago. This allows for a separation that many of my family friends do not have. That colleagues (medical workers) in Gaza do not have. And as such last night I said my (internal- for reaching them is impossible) goodbyes. Those working for MAP, for UNWRA, those I've met- even in a distant past where we had hope- and those I have not. The students at https://manara.tech, who just wanted a chance to betterment. And most of all the children, cousins of my own, whom we will never get to meet.
Know that you can never be forgotten, and that we carry your name forward.

No matter who you are, these past three weeks should have shocked you. It should. It has shown humanity's ability to fall prey to baser instincts and to desire the death of those different, or percieved as lesser than ourselves.
This is not defence, this is a massacre, a single-focused destruction of a people and any chance of prosperity or return to lives now completely destroyed.
The fact the UK and Western governments are accepting it is abhorrent beyond belief.

To any Israelis reading this. I can only offer you love. My heart is also broken.

It seems impossible to overcome the acts of inhumanity that have occurred these past few weeks. But it is not.
These acts, initiated by zealots speaking in the name of Palestinians, but not speaking for Palestinians.
Likewise, I know for many that Netenyahu does not speak for all of you, that settler actions don't speak for you.
But as always, as the war grows more violent, the walls will go up, and the dominant voices on both sides will grow darker. And we must try and remember our shared humanity.

Please- I beg you- pressure your government for a ceasefire.

If nothing else- we know that history tells us that increased devastation akin to that wrought on Gaza, the easier the narrative comes to dehumanise you as a people becomes for the next batch of extremists. Likewise- the more the narrative of a Palestinian whole as Extremists pervades- the same dehumanisation occurs in your view of us.
Instead, let us talk, as people with a commonality that poor historians would prefer us to forget. Like Jeremy Bowen claiming we "do not share much", instead remember even down to our Languages- we share a literal root- trileteral consonant structures.
We share more in culture, food, family structures- the essence of what makes a 'people' than we do with anyone else, and yet it is forgotten and arbitrary differences are weaponised. Weaponised and heightened by people who , including both sides 'allies'.

I can only hold my hand out in the hope you will take it, and that that starts a different approach to a conflict which should not exist, and one that has only proven that violent means achieve nothing but devastation and demonisation.

To non-Israelis, please, pressure your government to ask for a ceasefire to allow aid to reach my people. To allow a chance of reconciliation, however minute it is. For now it seems impossible.
Be part of a concerted voice to silence the anti-Semitic voices amongst the appeals for peace.
Be part of a concerted voice to silence the anti-Palestinian voices amongst the calls for justice and defence.

For once- make the loudest voice be the voice of reason.

Thank you for once again writing about such a painful experience. I have no useful words but offer my condolences.

I hope that having a human and personal account will help people focus on the tragedy and the human suffering being drawn out unnecessary

I second @branwen. Thank you for writing, it must be painful to do so.

I just caught up with the horror of the escalation overnight; have told my kids that we will be abandoning our plans for today in order to join the march. In years to come our leaders are going to say 'We didn't know' and we must show them now that we do know right from wrong and decency from piling inhumanity upon inhumanity.

thank you for posting.

it is horrible to see this unfold and the rest of the world in paralysis. it even seems that reporting is limited presumably to reduce "backlash".

at some point everyone will ask themselves - why did we let this happen?

Peelers just standing watching in Stirling as this is waved..

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The placard? I don't think (my opinion) that phrase is as clear-cut antisemitic as some on here. Yes it's Hamas' slogan. Problematic. But it's an older phrase and I would guess most using it in the UK are meaning freedom for Palestinians to live without constant fear and have rights to health, movement, work etc. Not to remove all Jews from the area ("free to live" not "free of those other people").

(Couldn't tell your intent from the post, whether you think it's a good or bad thing the police are not acting on it - whatever the wishes of HO)

I think a lot of social media savvy people would be aware of the problematic nature of the phrase, but use it anyway because it’s controversial and gets attention.

You can fall back to the non Hamas aligned meaning if questioned, particularly by police.

I imagine it might get you on some kind of low grade police watchlist.