Israel / Palestine

I don’t really see what there is to aspire to there.

The aspiration part of your comment is too broad for me to answer right now, but they way those two countries are central to my argument is that no one spends much energy on the the previous state's right to exist or on the right to self determination of the part of their population with a mostly European descent. And neither argument would be a useful fault line in a debate on racism and bigotry. As we marched in protest against the white ruled apartheid state, we were never 'anti-white' or, for example, 'anti-boer'. Most of the whiteys in South Africa are still there and most are getting on just fine.

There are analogues, but those countries were colonised and subjugated by global colonial superpowers (at the time), Israel was created on the back of the holocaust as a safe haven for surviving Jews. The power balance may have shifted more towards the colonial power now, but it's creation and why is still within living memory.

Perhaps nit-picking, but one could say that Israel was created on the back of European antisemitism in general. Some who arrived pre-WW2, and then a much greater influx after the Holocaust and later another great influx with the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. I can't feel any ill will towards the individual Jew who gave up on Europe and fled to British Palestine, I would probably have done the same myself. But I don't agree that much with your disconnect from Eurpoean colonialism. In the early days of the influx of European Jews, the average European had a pretty condescending attitude to the native population of their colonies. My argument would be that echoes of that attitude may have been some of the reason for how Jews and Arabs got off on the wrong foot. But where people of European descent elsewhere have (at least to some extent) started to see the error of their ways, I guess Chris Froome could be an example of a fairly well integrated white Kenyan, many Israelis have doubled down with religious and fatalistic rhetoric that has only served to deepen the divide.

Source: My personal take on a couple of Amos Oz novels as well as 'My promised land' by Ari Shavit.

Yeah, it's obviously an oversimplification of complicated situations. Zimbabwe was taken over and ruled wholly by a minority coloniser at the peak, but towards the end of its few hundred years of colonial power and history, for mainly economic exploitation. It gained it's independence as the empire wained and other countries seeked independence. Israel isn't just a case of colonised Palestinians removing a minority rule and gaining independence, there's a full country of people who remember, either personally, or from parents or grandparents' stories, fleeing genocide for a place specifically created as a safe haven for Jews, hence the right to exist stuff being important to them. Unfortunately this history doesn't seem to instill empathy in the actions of the Israeli state towards the Palestinian people, and the stuff happening now is horrific, but it's not the same as integrating some rich white families in a place with a fair amount of space in return for independence.

... it's not the same as integrating some rich white families in a place with a fair amount of space in return for independence.

Agree with you here. But in any case we're both off on a bit of tangent. My initial comment today was about how questioning Israel's right to exist will for some people be an act of antisemitism. But to borrow your word integration, I can for example ask; " how can we better integrate the diverse peoples of the Middle East". And implicit in my question is the possibility of integrating a diverse set of peoples in the same state, and that this state may not look like the Israel of today, and again such a set up might potentially limiting a certain people's right to self-determination. In some people's eyes I am already getting myself into dog-whistle racism here, and I can assure everyone I am no way racist or antisemitic. Many of my friends, family, ex-girlfriends etc etc etc....

The right to exist is one thing, then being placed in an area where everyone that was there didn't want those people there. Don't the people living there and have done for centuries have a right to exist in their land?

There was a choice of somewhere in Africa and somewhere in the US. Why not pick the US?

I'm not sure if I'm being antisemitic, meeting some Israelis, travelling after their military service, were not very nice people and had strong opinions on the local gentiles.

Why not pick the US?

Already pre-genocided. But I'd imagine the historic links to the area and Churchill being pissed and not giving a fuck about brown people had something to do with it.

.

Sentences that begin something like:

'I'm not being racist, but.....'

Probably shouldn't be said in the first place.

Also you're overly simplifying the creation of Israel.
Perhaps looking at it now, suggesting and creating a Jewish state in the middle of warring Muslim arab nations was not the best course for peace and harmony, but technically it is the Jewish homeland and they were there before the Christians and muslims.

Also breaking apart the previous land empire into parts was not a simple task, all countries within and around will have a difference stance on what they wanted and felt they deserved.

Yeah but....I'm not sure.

Also you are overlooking that the warmongering was to over throw the ottoman empire. Or does that not count.

The they were there first arguement doesn't really work. Especially as there are many cases of the indigenous population being fucked over by invadors/conquering the natives.

Also compared to other bits of the religion, different sects want different things. Just cos one sect disagrees with another doesn't mean that the one sect is being anti semetic to another.

Finally promising one thing to the locals for helping you and then going back on that agreement.

Not very nice people for their strong negative opinions of the local people. Am not sure that this is the same.

Still ok?

If I was being lenient, I’d say you were referring to ex-Military specifically, which wouldn’t be racist/antisemitic.

I know a good handful of lads, from the north of England, who served a couple of tours… and the way that has coloured their life experience in their formative years, well they say some things I don’t like or agree with.

This observation is not the same as me saying “northern ex army lads have some questionable opinions”. They’re only northern because so am I, and that’s how I know them. It’s an aside detail.

I don't understand the leniency, as that is the point I'm making.

Have experience of Europeans that were conscripts and they didn't finish their conscription with that attitude.

I don't understand the leniency

I don’t think you were being racist. It just so happens the people you met, who had the same awful opinion about another group of people, were the same nationality.

You didn’t have any control over anything you observed. Now if you extrapolated from that to say “all people from this country…” different kettle of fish.

Man, I’m explaining things terribly just lately.

Man, I’m explaining things terribly just lately.

I think a great deal is lost by not being face to face. I try and see the better/positive side.

I think being a European conscript gives you a different experience to being an Israeli conscript.
Actively being fired upon and being at a heightened level of military readiness would colour your experience.

I can understand the victim mentality that the Israeli government and many of their people might have. You were just earlier questioning whether Israel should exist, because they were placed somewhere where everyone didn’t want them. I think one of the problems was that post war, no one else wanted to take hundreds of thousands of Jewish displaced people.

If a country was created in Africa, I think the same thing would have happened, African nations are no less territorial or averse to dictatorships, war or genocide.

As it is, if you were given somewhere to live, particularly if you’d survived the Holocaust would you not have pretty strong opinions for protecting and keeping your new home?

On the other side, I don’t agree with the oppression and forced migration of Palestinians living in the same space, I think unfortunately that is part of securing your land and claim to it now and in the future.

Actively having rocks thrown at you

ftfy

I could have gone with “actively firing on unarmed civilians” too

Just a reminder that a motley crew by the name of 'Cyclists For Palestine' are doing a raffle to raise money for Medical Aid for Palestinians.

Tickets cost just £5 each.

There's a ton of really cool prizes to be won including a fillet-brazed Overbury's Pioneer ATB, a Wizard Works Hobgob hip pack, a custom steel rack by Starfish Bicycles and plenty more....

https://justgiving.com/page/cyclists4palestine

technically it is the Jewish homeland and they were there before the Christians and muslims

also an over simplification?

To say the least

Massively.

WTF is a homeland anyway? “This ethnic group belongs in the geographical area, this geographical area belongs to that ethnic group”? Nice 19th century ideology you’ve got going there, shame if it crashed into the 21st century with devastating consequences.

Everything is an oversimplification which is why we're pretty unlikely to solve it on a cycling forum.

a cycling forum.

Oversimplification, fam