Israel / Palestine

Labour have removed members with links/sympathy with Palestinian. Even Jewish ones.

Linking the criticism of Israel to antisemitism. How that sits with UN sanctions against Israel I don't understand.

Well aware of it - I'm in Labour. What I mean is that Starmer has to be at least dimly aware of how this looks to the general public.

No idea how starmer can join the antisemitism and counter manding Israel's actions.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Israel and its actions are not representative of all Jewish people.

Linking the criticism of Israel to antisemitism

This is objectively false - and you’ll find plenty of such accusations on Twitter at the moment - unless the criticism is in a very specific manner:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

It’s dangerous territory when lines like this are blurred and otherwise criminals claim to be beyond reproach.

Could you clarify what you mean? I Can interpret what you wrote in multiple ways.

I honestly thought at the time, that he didn't actually mean that they had a right to cut off water and power, just a right to defend themselves. As he said immediately that they had to abide by international law. He just got in a muddle. Not a great look though

Yes of course, I’m not trying to be obtuse.

When it comes to antisemitism - from what I have read and understood - criticism of Israel (the state) isn’t it unless there is specific reference/likening to the Nazis.

But I am seeing criticism of Israel (the state) more and more being labelled as antisemitic, if I’m cynical, in a bid to silence the critics. Either from people/bodies who do know better or people on Twitter who may very well be hurting and sensitive to any criticism in that approximate direction.

The biggest harm this does is to people who are genuinely victims of antisemitism.

The whole thing’s a mess and I wish states and terrorists would just stop killing civilians.

I hope no one finds this offensive; it’s the last thing I want.

When it comes to antisemitism - from what I have read and understood - criticism of Israel (the state) isn’t it

Sounds like you guys agree

A triangulated cluster fuck for Keith. A certain indefatigable cat impressionist will be dusting off his fedora.

https://archive.ph/3yS0q

what a shit show:

NF: A siege is appropriate? Cutting off power, cutting off water Sir Keir?

KS: I think that Israel does have that right. It is an ongoing situation. Obviously, everything should be done within international law.

Oh I wasn’t expressing agreement or otherwise. Just adding what I understand and what I have seen.

I’ve no real skin in the game, luckily.

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/media/press-releases/starvation-as-weapon-of-war-being-used-against-gaza-civilians/

Is Reuters appealing to emotions or illustrating reality? If civilians are needlessly dying by the thousands, with over a million displaced, does it matter?

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a lot of the posts are about exercising our agency and our voices, whether we have ‘skin in the game’ - as one person put it - or not. the main objective seems to be deliberating over things, arguing, getting a grip on the details. its a way of staying with a feeling of control. And i guess it is important to exercise our freedom to do this publicly, especially as these freedoms are being curtailed - whether that is by youtube or states in supposed democracies banning protest.
i want my contribution to the thread to be different though. I think the best thing for me to do is bear witness to the death but, even more, to the prospect of the genocide of a population. as i do this i feel things i doubt i would feel were i to involve myself in that other more intellectual activity. I feel totally overwhelmed, sick, dizzy; in disbelief that this is what humanity (still) seems to amount to, what I am therefore. Yes there are bikes and babies and jokes and fashion and i’ll go about my business, but it isn’t redeeming: none of that really, i feel, should distract our attention from a moral obligation to witness, in a full and feeling way, what we are capable of, what goes on in the name of humanity. It drags everything into the mud. My mind is hell, as I think it properly should be

Good post.

And I could’ve used a better turn of phrase.

thanks. also maybe for the best given so much of the violence we are seeing - including the violence of not listening or acknowledging the humanity of others- is so much tied to racism

“Staff have been crying in the toilets and freelancers have been sacrificing earnings by not showing up to work because of the distress caused. Many people are feeling deeply disturbed.”

https://archive.ph/S7YPh

Narcissist aunties seek safe spaces.

The newly elected speaker of the US House of Representatives is an evangelical Christian MAGAt. There’s a distressing number of people in the US who support Israel because they believe a biblical prophecy saying that the 2nd coming of Christ will come after the Jewish people return to their homeland and rebuild “the temple”. Now one of them effectively chairs one half of the institution (US Congress) that can authorise US foreign aid and military spending.

Labour had those pledges, if you remember. Can't remember the group's name. Remembered board of deputies of British Jews. This is them https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/expose-who-are-the-board-of-deputies-of-british-jews/

Look at what Corbyn was thrown out of the labour party for.

But I am seeing criticism of Israel (the state) more and more being labelled as antisemitic

Agree with you and the labelling annoys me. The actions of Israel are like ethnic cleansing. Look at the number of UN resolutions and what the resolutions are. Look how those resolutions are inforced.

Think this is the bit stammer seems to be stumbling, differentiation of Israel and Zionism with Judaism. An MP was called anti Semitic for saying that Israel should have been in the USA.

Now Israel is angry with the UN leader https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/israel-says-it-will-ban-un-staff-after-secretary-generals-comments seems like an excuse.

Seeing as Israel has ignored UN resolutions against itself. Does it take the UN seriously unless for the countries benefit.

Is Israel a member of the UN Human rights committee? As israel left last year and did the banning UN aid workers and overseer's then.

As an American, I apologise on behalf of my entire country. We are a daffy bunch of idiots.

When it comes to antisemitism - from what I have read and understood - criticism of Israel (the state) isn’t it unless there is specific reference/likening to the Nazis.

Yeah, to me the problem starts when Israel sympathisers starts going on about Israel's right to exist. To me that isn't too far off from discussing Rhodesia's right to exist. For sure, I would like every individual currently residing roughly within the borders of Israel/Palestine to be treated with diginity and humanity, but can one ethnic group alone decide on the fundamental identity and course of a country? Rhodesia became Zimbabwe, but a lot of the whiteys stuck around and until the 90s weren't treated all too shabbily. In South Africa, the name itself stuck, but the society changed drastically for the better. Isn't this where the future of the Israelis and the Palestinians ought to be? A middle eastern 'Rainbow nation' with a neutral flag, neutral school curriculum etc etc. And like other former colonial nations, who will really miss the interim state once it's gone?

But there isn’t the mutual trust needed for anything like this to happen in the foreseeable future. Zimbabwe and South Africa are still deeply fractured countries with many problems, so I don’t really see what there is to aspire to there.