Israel / Palestine

Ok I'll bite. When has Iran directly attacked Israel and the US installed missile defence system has been used to protect from attacks from where? How advanced/range were the missiles?

Has Israel, under the mossad banner had military operations, gone in to other countries such as drone strikes in Iran. Attacked Iran alleged nuclear weapons program.

Does Israel claim the Iran funds Hezbollah in the Lebanon (another area that Israel invaded) and Hamas, and used that as a reason to attack Iran and others.

Why can't other countries defend against Israel's attacks and retaliate in a similar manor?

I'm not sure any of those questions explain that Israel is not really under threat.

My point was what does threat mean? Just because they are being attacked by a weaker power doesn't mean they're not being attacked.

Iran doesn't need to directly attack Israel. That's not what happens in a proxy war. The point is that it's not David Vs Goliath is it? Because it's not just "David", just like it's not just Goliath.

Also I'm not sure it's relevant where the >4k of missiles the Iron Dome has stopped came from, nor how sophisticated they are. Sure you can say that it's actually a financial attack due to the high cost of each interception. But they still literally have a permanent missile defence system in regular use.

I'd agree with anyone who says Israel counter attacks are disproportionate and unconstructive. But I wholeheartedly disagree with equating their militarily success (defensive and offensive) to the existence, or level of theat they face.

It’s pretty well known that Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran funded no?
They support the Hamas offensive, though not claiming any credit.

The US knows this, and also knows that a variety of Islamist terrorist organisations are not so covertly funded by Iran (which is why there are so many sanctions).

The US protection and support for Israel is probably the only reason why Iran (and other neighbours) hasn’t tried a full scale invasion of Israel already.

Don’t think there is any political advantage of invading Iran.

As per link @nick_h. posted a while back, it seems that Hamas' main source of funding in recent years has been from Qatar routed via Israel (other sources corroborate this although ascribe a different motivation to Netanyahu's role in it).

Edit: I'm also not sure that Iran has a significant motivation to invade Israel although interested in other views and evidence on this point.

Robert Fisk was one of the first journalist to enter Sabra and Shatilla ,
his book The great war for civilisation, is a good read .

From further reading, you seem to be right.

Though Qatar agreeing with the US to freeze $6 billion of frozen Iranian money seems strange. A way of distancing themselves from Hamas at the current time?

Yes, I read an article on that and struggle to understand exactly what is going on - and now Trump saying that Biden has financed the Hamas attack, in reference to this arrangement.

Israel as a Geograpic Nation was a knee-jerk reaction to the Concentration Camps of WWII. Instigated by the Jewish/US lobby under the "League of Nations" (a forerunner to the UN) the region was a UK protectorate at the time, but the US assumed Political control due to their dominant efforts in WWII.

So the most important Islamic territory (especially Jerusalem) was taken over, and the locals (of almost 2000 years standing) were evicted. Then a population with an advanced European education, STRONG religious culture and ingrained history of persecution was injected into the region. It was yet another League of Nations disaster waiting to happen... Please Google causes of WWII, Wilson's 14 points etc,.

Most of us have the good fortune to be watching this all on TV; our friends and families are not being destroyed for no assured outcome. If you are effected, you have my very deepest sympathy.

Politics is difficult, and religious beliefs make life even more complex. IF the UN has any useful purpose (which I doubt) they should work to resolve these issues and bring understanding and mutual respect to the situation. But I fear that they are a "Paper Tiger" as Mao Zedong might have said in this situation.

Mate, trump probably said Hunter is funding all terrorism.

I wrote that to Chas as a tongue in cheek comment.

Am angry/upset by this, and not sure why.

Being forced to watch question time and wow so much shite being spouted...and piers Morgan (the fucking so full of shit liar, see lies about listening to voicemails) also the Jewish cronical editor (or any journalist published in that paper) giving am unbiased view.

Am sitting in the garden wearing a t shirt in the rain to avoid the shite.

Edit now Hamas are just like Isis.... awaiting for rent a gob faridge to turn up.

Well Hamas are beheading a Jewish baby while Palestinian babies in ICU are dieing as there is no power/medicine.

Hamas took hostages yet Israel I arrests and imprisons children throwing stones from areas Israel has no right to be, are not hostages.

You forgot to mention the UK support of the Arab uprising (so named) against the ottoman empire who occupied the region. Then what the UK promised to the Arabs.

During the time of ww1 this was a tactical way to stop the full force of the ottoman empire, who were against the allied forces coming to aid/strengthen and probably win against the allied forces. Actually were the UK et al allied forces then or was that just ww2 I can't remember.

How many UN sanctions are against Israel... 140 times from wiki up to 2015 but this one the 60s seems apt Resolution 3414: Calls for economic sanctions and an arms embargo on Israel until it withdraws from all territories occupied in 1967 and grants the Palestinians their "inalienable national rights". 11 December: Resolution 3474: Calling for an establishment of a nuclear-weapon-free zone in the Middle East.

While 2022 seems to have the UN sanction Israel more than every else on this planet https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-more-than-all-other-countries-combined-in-2022-monitor/ which Im not sure that times of Israel is a credible source https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/ says they are but still. That can't be true, can it?

Israel and Israelites and Judaism existed many centuries before Christianity and Islam, and Israelites lived in the area from 1200BCE.

Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, romans, Christians, arabs, crusades, ottomans, then back to Israel. Who actually constitutes as a local is blurred.

How far back to you need to go the decide who the land belongs to? And who gets to decide?

Politics is difficult, plenty of other countries were unhappy with their redrawn borders post world wars, lots of civil wars, genocides.

Jerusalem has changed hands violently over 40 times, sadly likely to be a focal point for conflict many more times in the future.

I wasn't taking sides, I hope, just putting some context to show that no one is free from the tensions that exist, and have largely been created by wars or external powers.

Mesopotamia (oh yes!), during WWI was the domain of "Lawrence of Arabia", who made it his mission to understand the details of inter-Arabic politics and culture. He manipulated the locals for his own (and our) gain, but his books are still fantastic adventure stories; Indiana Jones would be proud !

Few parts of the world are free from underlying tensions due to historical conflicts. We can't unwind all that, but we need to find ways to understand the different perspectives, and move on - probably with assistance in many cases.

I'm still waiting for reparations from the Romans !

Here's a chatgpt summary:

This article expresses profound grief and shock at the recent tragic events in Israel, with over 1,000 people killed, thousands injured, and many taken hostage. The author criticizes the government's leadership for what they see as a betrayal of the nation's ideals, accusing them of prioritizing personal agendas over the well-being of citizens.

The piece reflects on the protests against the government over the past nine months, emphasizing the desire of many Israelis to build a liberal, democratic, and peace-loving state. The author condemns both the occupation and the violent actions of Hamas, emphasizing the severity of the latter's actions.

The writer predicts that the aftermath of these events may lead to a more rightwing, militant, and polarized Israel. They express doubt about the possibility of real dialogue and acceptance between Israel and Palestine in the near future, given the trauma and divisions caused by the recent conflict. The article also criticizes recent attempts at peace agreements, arguing that a true resolution must address the suffering of Palestinians.

In conclusion, the author laments the ongoing conflict, expressing a longing for a normal, secure life for the people of Israel.

The article makes a very clear comparison between the occupation and the recent Hamas terrorism, and explicitly ranks them. It completely overlooks the longer term impact of the occupation, and makes this whole affair about the past week.

I'm still waiting for reparations from the Romans !

This explains it quite well IMO https://dawnmena.org/prelude-to-partition-75-years-ago-a-u-n-committee-determined-palestines-fate/

I need 5 sponsors to get this shit going... I was even willing to put my name on this, it needs to be said and heard.

I’ve made a petition – will you sign it?

Click this link to sign the petition:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/648746/

My petition:

Do not participate, or otherwise support, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine

The UK Gov should take strong steps to ensure that the UK is not complicit in ethnic cleansing by participating or support the siege and blockade of Palestine, or contributing any military assistance or weapons that further the crisis, instead we should actively provide humanitarian assistance.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation that represents a tiny minority of the people of Palestine. Yet the people of Palestine are subject to a siege by one of the most militarily capable nations on Earth. This is a humanitarian crisis where people lack food, shelter, energy, and medical equipment. Israel has take a position that historically indicates that they will expand territory and cause great suffering, many will die and the UK should avoid getting blood on our collective hands.

Edit: oh, it's in the email confirmation you get sent. Ignore me

It's funny that until you get 5 signatures it's impossible to read the petition text; so one just has to take it on good faith that the text is as suggested

thanks all... the threshold for it being made public is met, it's now subject to a review... so I've withdrawn the sponsor link.

Did you consider leading with the humanitarian point?

As I read it, there are two limbs - 1) no military assistance, 2) provide humanitarian assistance.

I wonder if leading with 2nd is less controversial.

we're busy sending warships to "bolster" security... not much point giving someone a tent if it needs to be pitched on rubble, bread and water if we're about to drop another shell on them, medical equipment if they're dead.

we've got to stop hurting them before we can start thinking that applying a bandage is going to help.

Fair enough.

Fwiw I backed it. IMO the only long term solution is to create a stable prosperous Palestine. That can't happen while a war and humanitarian crisis are ongoing.

(that is one point I would conceded is not complicated)

I get the following:

We’re checking this petition
16 people have already supported this petition.
We need to check it meets the petition standards before we publish it.
Please try again in a few days.

Once they hit 5 it gets reviewed. Then they publish it or don't.

I can't help but think how this could all have been avoided if the Palestinians hadn't missed the boat to form a formal state immediately after the fall of the Ottomans. This wouldn't have happened if they'd had their act together and pushed back at the League of Nations decision to bring in Israeli settlers or to at least finish agreeing a proper 2 state solution before the British left Palestine and the Israelis went into overdrive. On their part its 70 years of failing to get organised.