Israel / Palestine

Was just wondering, maybe came across as confrontational but it wasn't that.

Maybe the USA idea would have been best, lower population density and part of me thinks it would have been indigenous population reservations.

It was rhetorical but always appreciate a genuine response

Just find it disingenuous when people wheel out that gaza voted for hamas as if they have regular free and fair elections

And roughly half the population of Gaza is <18 so literally born after the last election took place

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2023/10/11/eliminate-eradicate-level-u-s-politicians-escalate-rhetoric-against-hamas-00120909

US republicans’ penchant for action movie sound bites making the world unsafer.

Lots of merited concern for the hostages, but not much of a care for the 2 million Palestinians. I’m not picking sides in this, but even in the absurdly impossible case that every last Palestinian politically supported Hamas, what, are we just supposed to be OK with 2 million people being slaughtered indiscriminately?

Here's an opinion piece in Haaretz blaming Netanyahu for the attack. He's been funding and strengthening Hamas in order to scupper the two state solution https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000

Opinion | Why Did Netanyahu Want to Strengthen Hamas? Netanyahu
developed a destructive, warped political doctrine that held that
strengthening Hamas at the expense of the Palestinian Authority would
be good for Israel

There’s no doubt that in the immediate and short term, the reasons
behind the disgraceful mishap of inconceivable scope that led to the
Hamas army’s unhindered takeover of more than 20 Israeli communities
near the Gaza border that dark Simchat Torah day involve an
embarrassing military and intelligence failure.

Of course, they also involve the criminal neglect of the affairs of
state by an indicted prime minister who is feverishly preoccupied with
finding ways to escape trial. And the price is the destruction of the
existential foundations of Israeli society and of the country.

The purpose of the doctrine was to perpetuate the rift between Hamas
in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.

But the deep roots of the feasibility of the murderous assault by the
Islamist nationalist phalangists from the prison that is Gaza on
Israeli citizens should actually be sought in an earlier period of
Benjamin Netanyahu’s time in office as prime minister – prior to his
criminal trial and his alliance with nationalist Kahanists and the
judicial coup, back when he was considered “level-headed” and
“rational” and “responsible.”

That’s because since he took office as prime minister a second time in
2009, that same Netanyahu developed and advanced a destructive, warped
political doctrine that held that strengthening Hamas at the expense
of the Palestinian Authority would be good for Israel.

The purpose of the doctrine was to perpetuate the rift between Hamas
in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That would
preserve the diplomatic paralysis and forever remove the “danger” of
negotiations with the Palestinians over the partition of Israel into
two states – on the argument that the Palestinian Authority doesn’t
represent all the Palestinians.

That flawed strategy turned Hamas from a minor terrorist organization
into an efficient, lethal army with highly trained, dehumanized
stormtroopers, bloodthirsty killers who mercilessly slaughtered
innocent Israeli civilians including women, children and the elderly.

This is solidlydocumented. Between 2012 and 2018, Netanyahu gave Qatar
approval to transfer a cumulative sum of about a billion dollars to
Gaza, at least half of which reached Hamas, including its military
wing. According to the Jerusalem Post, in a private meeting with
members of his Likud party on March 11, 2019, Netanyahu explained the
reckless step as follows: The money transfer is part of the strategy
to divide the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Anyone who
opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support the
transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas. In that way, we will foil
the establishment of a Palestinian state (as reported in former
cabinet member Haim Ramon’s Hebrew-language book “Neged Haruach”, p.
417). In an interview with the Ynet news website on May 5, 2019,
Netanyahu associate Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves,
said, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent
the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest
partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”

In a tweet on May 20, 2019, Channel 13 quoted Egyptian President Hosni
Mubarak saying: “Netanyahu isn’t interested in the two-state solution.
Rather, he wants to separate Gaza from the West Bank, as he told me at
the end of 2010.” Mubarak said that during an interview with the
Kuwaiti daily Al-Anba.

It’s worth dwelling on the horrifying significance of these remarks.
An Israeli prime minister himself knowingly and calculatingly
cultivated one of Israel’s most bitter and fanatic foes, an enemy
whose declared aim is to destroy the country. And he did it to prevent
the horror scenario from his standpoint of a return to
Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. Netanyahu recklessly gambled on the
lives of Israelis, and in fact, last Shabbat, more than 1,000 of them
paid the price of that foolish gamble with their lives.

“This government has blood, rivers of blood, on its hands,” Iris Leal
justifiably wrote in Haaretz this week, (Haaretz, Oct. 8). But one
should acknowledge and clearly and explicitly state that, on the
Israeli side, the person bearing the fundamental responsibility for
the killing of more than a thousand Israelis by Hamas is Benjamin
Netanyahu – its covert ally, as Maj. Gen. Cohen put it, but also an
effective and essential one for the Palestinian religious nationalist
terrorist organization, at least between 2012 and 2019.

Thanks to the funneling of millions of Qatari dollars to Gaza, with
Netanyuhu’s repeated approval as part of a deliberate and malicious
policy aimed at nothing other than burying the two-state solution,
Hamas acquired inordinate military capabilities within a relatively
short time. And that resulted in the current situation, which as I
write, has taken the lives of about 1,000 Israelis.

With the end of the hostilities, when it comes, one may hope that a
state commission of inquiry to investigate the events surrounding the
Simchat Torah massacre – an unprecedented slaughter of Jews in their
own country – would be convened. One of the main issues that the
commission should investigate is Netanyahu’s long-term policy of
strengthening Hamas.

I think what is truly gross is how the ongoing assault of Gaza is portrayed within Western channels as justified and required. This is seen most notably in reportage that amplifies Israel's military capacities, does not even think about a non-violent solution, and critically fails to show and cover the death of Palestinians (both now and over the decades) without an ounce of empathy. The reality is is that the ongoing situation in Gaza is dire and many more people will die for no other reason than collective punishment that governments like the UK and US actively support. Importantly this can be stopped but in all likelihood will not and as a result thousands of people will die.

I implore those on this thread to find non-western media sources in order to actually better understand the situation if you truly care. Places such as ME monitor, Al Haq, Al Mezan, Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, and Arab journalists' twitters from the region have much more empathetic coverage. Might require you to copy paste / know some arabic!

Where has the older population gone?

I implore those on this thread to find non-western media sources

What do you think of Haaretz?

The whole Jewish thing has been going on for millennia.

Just under two. Almost exclusively in Christian countries, for almost all of that time (relatively speaking). Alt-right/neo-nazi types like to say "Jews have been hated everywhere they went" but in fact it was usually just us doing that. Then we kicked everybody else's castles down and (partly due to meddling that the UK was hugely, if ineptly, involved in) global antisemitism was one of the things that emerged as they recovered. There's a savage irony in the way that many post-colonial societies, as they have reconstructed themselves after our departure, hung on to some of the worst things we could have left behind.

Think you're being harsh on cricket here, tbf.

I don’t think anyone here is taking Western coverage as read.

Just find it disingenuous when people wheel out that gaza voted for hamas as if they have regular free and fair elections

Right. But they didn't not vote for them. So it isn't straightforward.

My point wasn't in relation to the legitimacy of Hamas' electoral mandate. In the same way that I wasn't suggesting the Neturei Karta are a powerful interest group. It was in relation to "this is all really simple guys".

But maybe I'm getting confused by the nuance and use of complicated Vs complex.

Really interesting peice. Divide and conquer makes sense.

One thing I'm not sure about though is the conclusion of allowing funds thorough. Approval for funds ≠ wanting funds to arm Hamas.

Limiting the extent of a humanitarian crisis helps to reduce outside interference and pressure on Israel.

use of complicated Vs complex.

If that's a reference to @E11_FTW 's comment, I think they got those two things the wrong way round.

Alt-right/neo-nazi types like to say "Jews have been hated everywhere they went"

People also forget how assimilated the vast majority of the German Jewish population was. Films and media tend to portray Orthodox people as it has better visual effects, but most of those were East European survivors of the pogroms. The juxtaposition between the levels of integration and what happened from 1930 onwards is what shifted ziomism from being viewed as a fringe group to being viewed as a means of survival.

Hardly an in-depth historical look but combines shared interests. Cycling through Israel and Palestine...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fifty-Miles-Wide-Julian-Sayarer/dp/1911350757

I dont know what the collective opinion is on Norman Finkelstein nowadays but I always appreciated that he was an American Jew, the son of two concentration camp/Warsaw Ghetto survivors (Auschwitz and Majdanek) and is thoroughly appalled by Israel's treatment of Palestinians, largely because of that. He has many books and I believe he is banned from Israel because of it.

Ramzy Baroud - My Father Was a Freedom Fighter. https://www.plutobooks.com/9781783714124/my-father-was-a-freedom-fighter/

Joe Sacco - Palestine (Graphic novel) very cool.

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/769712

Well aware this isn't even what you asked for. Just some books I "enjoyed" on the topic. Been bias since I was born, my father lived in Beirut when Israel invaded and let the Sabra and Shatilla Massacres happen...

Israeli wartime poll:
84% of Israeli Jews blame government for Gaza fiasco
56% say PM Netanyahu must resign after the war
52% say Defense Minister Gallant must resign
(via @WallaNews)

https://twitter.com/sfrantzman/status/1712386232603332663?t=kidDb82m1W9S4_9IysNPFg&s=19

Forget all politics and land etc... the Primary problem here and throughout the world is Religion, the biggest story/ lie ever told to humankind! plain and simple! theres nothing to argue about!! there really isnt - Religion is actually its own Evil - funny that!

Over simplistic view. Religion originally stopped people killing each other, and arguably still
does, humans need to coalesce around a shared belief. Remove religion now and populations will still find divides to war over.
(I couldn’t be less religious myself btw).

Not at all man created religion for control just like a society, if we never knew good or bad then we wouldnt know would we.. its only because your parents told you as such! i.e man created everything that sucks ass ! hahaha

Ah, an intellectual has entered the chat.

Thank you for your helpful input, good luck with solving that issue...

I guess there a belief that atheists would be non violent and live in perfect harmony?
(quick google search brings up League of militant atheists who helped Russia kill clergy and committed believers)

While humans desire being part of a community, order and also have a fear of death, humans will seek religion, and either violently or non-violently convince other people that they are right or wrong.

Funny, desperately sad and topical, despite being over 9 years old.

https://www.tiktok.com/@themadhatter0718/video/7288398930067377439

Man, this is spot on!

its only because your parents told you as such! i.e man created everything that sucks ass !

1. Religion is a lie
   
2. It's also a lie that man created everything that sucks ass
   
3. Wait, whut?