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if you genuinely believe that
trans women are women
There should be no debate about excluding them from women's cycling, because as women they should be treated as women.
If this is your position, do you think that there should be any requirements with regard to hormone levels etc. for trans women, at least in elite professional sports?
ffm-
I don't know and honestly I don't care that much.
One of the massive practical issues people seem to overlook with regards to physiology, hormones and so on when it comes to trans women is that these variables don't exist in isolation.
Obviously you've all read the Stonewall report which @Calumonwheels posted. If you haven't, I'd strongly recommend that you do, but if you don't have time just read some of the quotes on that page.
Tell you what, I'll post a few here for ease of reference:
I get shouted at every single time I leave my house and threatened at least once a week. I try to closet myself from my family because I’m so close to getting kicked out. I can’t access hormone replacement therapy without going private. I’m disabled. It’s a lot to deal with and I’m crumbling under the stress but I consider myself a warrior. But really, something needs to change.
Even just five years ago it was not safe for me to come out as trans, the pace of change has been amazing. Unfortunately, there now appears to be a backlash against that progress in the last year with hate from the media against trans increasing disturbingly in the last six months. This increasing transphobia is accelerating and is causing acute anxiety in my daily life.
Do you not think that this wider marginalisation and discrimination might just disadvantage someone who was trying to live their best life as a racing cyclist?
Sport doesn't exist in a bubble.
This whole 'debate' is largely theoretical. TERFs love a good theoretical debate about something which isn't a problem in reality - c.f. trans women in women's toilets.
How about we worry about this stuff when it's not actually a problem? I.e. when society has progressed to a point where trans people don't face discrimination, harassment and abuse in their day-to-day lives?
Fox
God this thread is incredibly disappointing, particularly the opprobrium directed at @Calumonwheels
@Velocio pretty much nailed this in his last post, but to spell it out a bit more clearly: if you genuinely believe that
There should be no debate about excluding them from women's cycling, because as women they should be treated as women. If you even consider exclusion a valid option, you don't really think trans women are women. That means you're not an ally of trans people, you're a transphobe. It really is that simple.
As @Velocio says, if you were to reframe this 'debate' as about gay people, or black people, or disabled people I hope that everyone would find this completely unthinkable.
The fundamental argument behind excluding trans women from women's racing is that they have a physiological advantage. As James says, some sports are better suited to people with certain physiologies. Kenyan people have a physiological advantage at running, so should they be excluded from running because they have an advantage?
I hope everyone reading that would consider that racist, an absolutely unacceptable proposition and say no, but honestly the last few pages has got me wondering.
As in wider society, it seems that there is a disappointingly large number of people on this forum for whom trans equality is a step too far, and who seem to think it's acceptable to have a 'debate' about a marginalised, vulnerable group and whether they should be excluded from aspects of society.
That's shameful.