-
Hey @Maj - thank you for the reply and you know I respect you too. I'm not going to get into a back and forth that neither of us want but I think you've misunderstood my points on -isms, on patriarchy and on intersectionality. I'm not trying to convince you of anything here - you also know your own mind :) just clarify where I think you misrepresented me.
I'm not saying trans and blackness are synonymous models of marginalised experience at all, I'm just saying the power dynamic between male and female is not in the direction of female to male, and therefore Veloccio's examples of female excluding male being like white excluding black, straight excluding gay etc are the wrong way round.
And I know Patriarchy is the structures society constructs to advantage men (sorry, can't agree it's just white men, plenty of non-white societies are patriarchal, some pretty fucking violently), but those structures are built out of both tangible institutions and the intangible individual actions people take every day, mostly unconsciously, that reinforce them. Patriarchy informs the individual actions between men and women (and men and men, and women and women) through which domestic and social power is enacted.
And I don't reject Intersectionality, not at all. Not do I think all intersections are fixed at birth. What I am calling out is an intersectional analysis that ignores physical sex, or assumes it can be subsumed into gender. Sex and gender intersect.
Ok, that's all I wanted to say. If I don't get banned I hope we will continue to have the odd cautious and polite interaction over the trenches - and maybe one day I'll even be able to get you that beer I owe you ;)
(And of course I don't forget that I'm a middle class white woman! I have a lot of privilege. But even women like me know what it's like to be spoken over by male people, to walk in a room, or sit in a park or get on a train even, and realise the women are just... not there, not myself raped thank god but yes pulled off my bike in the dark, not hit in anger but see the flash of rage for saying no or answering back, to try again and again to find the right words to say something reasonable without provoking anger and realise there can never be any right words for someone who doesn't want to hear...)
-
i think you might get banned if you keep calling trans women male and i don't want that
I do, this forum should not be a safe space for TERFs and transphobes.
You are reading a single comment by @Maj and its replies.
Click here to read the full conversation.
brokenbetty
Fox
@Maj
you're a very smart woman @brokenbetty , we've spoken before and one of those reasons we did speak is because you clearly are quite switched on when it comes to feminist theory, the 70-90's of british feminism is a fascinating place which has shaped the lives of women and LGBT people for this country since and you know this as well as i, more even, you were there. but what i think you do struggle with, much as i thought at the time and still now, is that you forget you're a middle class white woman.
when we talk about intersectionality, in bell hooks original intention, the core principle of such is not that these labels are interchangable and applyable like pin badges, but that the intersections you have are fixed, not from birth, but we aquire them through life. this helps to explain how a intelligent black women will find it much harder in the world, as a woman, as professional, as a person, than a middling white woman from a old money family. rehashed by, i'm sure you know, peggy mcintosh when discussing how privilige was an explicit tool to convey the impact of whitness and how it is pervaisive even amongst "the good ones" (funny how this has been forgotten and the intention of privledge discourse is heirachical masturbation, maybe something for people in this thread to remember). with this in mind it's very interesting reading your thoughts on intersectionality, and how you dont think it has helped women all that much. i think this goes some way to articulate why you have so much difficulty relating to trans women.
i actually reject that trans and blackness are synonymous models of marginalised experience, they're not, they're parralell but a white trans woman like myself, and a black trans woman have a multitidue of different experiences and risk factors in society at large, that are different in consequence even when considering the patriachy we both face. but we're both women even though our experiences and fears come from different avenues. much in the same way that when a trans woman stands side by side with a cis woman, we're both women.
trans women are women, they have been treated like a woman their whole life, it's why our experiences and understanding of male patriarchy are connected. one does not decide to take HRT, get shunned by friends and family, face unemployment, homelessness, and LGBT violence for an internal feeling or to win some sporting events. much like a lesbian does not choose to be gay, or a hetrosexual woman who deplores the patriarchal impact and control men have over her life chooses to end up married to a man who you have to coach into cleaning up after themselves.
the idea that trans woman somehow is embodying or weaponising patriarchy, or in competition with a woman is a misunderstanding of how patriarchy is formed. it's not an individual agency, the patriarchy isn't something one embodies, it's a structures used to describe how societry constructs to advantage white men. ofc trans women can be participatory in this, so can cis women, they do all the time, for they are both white women. which is why writers like bell hooks wrote about intersectionality, how could we critique whiteness, and the participation of white women in the patriarchy, how could we critique feminism for its erasure of black and brown bodies, how could we critique feminism of its erasure of queer experiences. i also believe hooks went on to define that trans women also are a valid critique of feminism (https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXhZ6fWAoc4/?hl=en)
i don't expect to change your mind betty, i've failed at that before, you're an autonomous person with your own experience.
but i think you might get banned if you keep calling trans women male and i don't want that, i like having strong opinionated women around in this see of fence sitting men, so i'm trying again to say, let's stop that