British Cycling being embarassing, obsequious idiots ...

That's what people have been doing for the past several years. Do keep up. Keep staying on the same side of the line as literal nazis if you want.

Do we get many Godwin's on the forum, or is that a first?

Good on them!

I don't know exactly what line you are referring to. In my opinion drawing a hard line is not possible with a non-binary system. We either have one big circle where everyone is friends and competition is eradicated for all, or some arbitrary boundaries have to be drawn somewhere.

Funny how you're in agreement with the far right on where those boundaries are isn't it.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/20/victoria-to-ban-nazi-salute-after-anti-trans-protest-melbourne-australia

I'm sure everyone affected by the policy is reassured that there won't be any "genitals checks" despite that being practiced or advicated by transphobes around the world already.

Nazis in Queensland were protesting British Cycling's new rules? Weird.

I don't think anyone would require you to do this, only to just be honest about your history.

Ah I see, rather than me exposing my genitals, they'd rather look at a data sheet so they can mentally picture it instead. I'm calling a spade a spade here, it's still creepy as hell.

If we accept that we are not in a binary system, and sporting events are obviously limited in the number of categories they can create, then we must all be pigeonholed to some extent.

Wasn't complaining about the lack of categories including non-binary people! We're all aware anyway that when we speak of "gendered" categories, they're referring to what sex you align to anyway.

It sucks, but it's something that's really water off a ducks back to me at this point. What does irk me, is that I don't get a say in what sex they're going to align me with.

Everyone is being given the opportunity to compete.

Akin to being told the disabled toilet was the "lesbian changing room", forcing women to participate in an open category when the only other category is womens is still forcing exclusion. It's basically saying "shed your identity at the door if you want to compete."

The only thing that has been clarified is where BC draw those lines in order to be fair to the majority of people. (Those people also being those who haven't taken hormone therapies or other physiologically altering procedures).

Don't know what I missed off earlier, but even without hormone therapies or "physiologically altering procedures" I wouldn't be classified as a "woman" despite being told I was at birth. It's actually incredibly common for a lot of women, including those with PCOS, thyroid problems, diabetes, to name a few. On top of that, women of colour typically have a higher average than white women across the board, hence why legislation like this will also have a knock-on effect to exclude women of colour. Category Woman was a great documentary recently released about this.

I don't think many of the races governed by these rules are considered 'for fun' and if fun is what you want from riding a bike, then generally I would advise heading far from BC or any kind of governing body.

If sport isn't 'for fun' then what is it? Eugenics? Proof of physiological betterment? I'd much rather go to the sound races, enjoyed having some beers at Fixed Crit and watching my mates skid round the track. Maybe I'll take up that, but the latter I won't be participating in, regardless of if it did appeal.

Maybe this is more what they have in mind. proper sport, none of your "fun" nonsense.

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even without hormone therapies or "physiologically altering procedures" I wouldn't be classified as a "woman" despite being told I was at birth. It's actually incredibly common for a lot of women, including those with PCOS, thyroid problems, diabetes, to name a few. On top of that, women of colour typically have a higher average than white women across the board, hence why legislation like this will also have a knock-on effect to exclude women of colour.

I agree, testosterone level is a ridiculous yardstick to determine whether someone is a woman, for all the reasons you flag and more.

Female people are not males with low testosterone. We are complete humans in our own right, and we continue to be female even if we happen to have higher than usual testosterone for our sex.

However now society has decided women can include male people, it has to either give up on the idea of women-only sport categories or ensure the yardstick for being a woman be achieved by males. So, testosterone it is. Not to benefit female people but to accommodate male.

(Incidentally, one reason there's not been many trans women olympians is because until 2015 trans women competing in women's categories had to have fully surgically transitioned, which is pretty rare still. The testosterone level wasn't introduced to keep trans women out of women's sports but to allow more in).

Amazing. Making out that you'd really do hate to be discriminating against women like Caster Semenya but you have no choice but to, because of the transes fault. Truly you are the real victim here.

https://gal-dem.com/athletics-war-of-transphobia-and-misogynoir-black-african-women-losing/

Yes, that's about the size of it. If you want to make Woman a mixed sex category but for some reason still keep the concept of Women's sports even though you have no actual meaningful definition of women, this is where you end up. Sorry, sometimes getting what you want sucks.

(Almost as amazing as claiming to support women by shouting down female people in favour of male, amirite?)

'Shouting down' oh please get a backbone. You want to maraud around blocking some of the country's most marginalised people from participating in amateur sports while the national front and the daily heil cheerlead you, you can at least not feign you're in a state of oppression while you do it.

Yeah that's it. What do female people know about oppression anyway? Well known for marauding and blocking we are. If there's one group that's responsible for a disproportionate level of violence it's female people, right?

Ah yes the transphobe pretense that you represent 'female people' and are not, in fact, a bizarre and sad group of swivel eyed bigots walking hand in hand with the far right.

At least two other '''female people''' in this thread have told you where to get off, and you still claim to represent them. Hilarious.

Not to benefit female people but to accommodate male.

There’s some paper done (notably the previously mentioned Joanna Harper) who come to the conclusion that “In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women.”

It’s a little bit belittling to said trans women are “male”, moreso, we have very little talk of trans men in racing.

The biggest issues I think in cycling as other have mentioned is BC not doing much to domestic cycling, and moreso in women’s cycling that the ideas of accommodating “male” is the singular biggest threat to it.

"Since the ruling, seven black African women have been forced out of their events thanks to their natural hormone levels. Kenyan runners Maximila Imali, Evangeline Makena and Magaret Wambui, Burundian runner Francine Niyonsaba, Ugandan runner Annet Negesa and Nigerien sprinter Aminatou Seyni have all been faced with a ‘choice’ to either not compete or undergo hormonal treatment, including a gonadectomy – a surgery that removes reproductive organs in order to stop the production of sex steroids including testosterone – in order to avoid the risk of being barred from competition."

Worth noting for completeness that the gonads that would be removed in said gonadectomy would be undescended testes developed as a result of a difference of sexual development/intersex condition (often of a person with XY chromosomes). Whether you think that the testosterone that those organs produce should be subject to regulation within a women's sports category is part of the ongoing debate.

Hilarious.

Your heart is in the right place, but the way you carry yourself, you’re doing a good jobs of making people not wanting to engage with you.

Appreciate your perspective.

I literally am a female person. And no, I'm not "a bizarre and sad ...swivel eyed bigot walking hand in hand with the far right" - you are so laughably wrong here all I can do is pity you and your narrow narrow wordview and your lack of understanding.

But men like you are nothing new. There's always someone ready to justify ignoring women (OG)'s voices, ready to tell us why our own understanding of our own lives is just all darn wrong.

And I'm out. Enjoy arguing with the shadows of your own mind.

I literally do not care in the slightest. These are people knowingly walking hand in hand with the fash, how I talk on a forum makes zero odds whatsoever. They're already knowingly joining in hatemongering pile ons on minorities, it isn't for lack of education, it's an enthusiasm for bullying the weak and confidence that they'll get away with it.

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You really need to stop the ad hominem attacks, if you want people to engage with you in a debate.

You've literally called her a nazi and we also had this:

"I’ll fucking fight you if you say my friends aren’t who they say they are"

So, yes, "shouting down" seems fair. I am absolutely astonished that, regardless of what you think the best solution is, statements like the following don't land a hell of a lot harder in terms of trying to create some sort of consensus position:

"Women (OG version) are talking about this to each other. More and more every day. If they are not talking to you about it it's because they are scared to.

Let that sink in. Women are becoming scared to tell so-called progressive, feminist men the truth. They do not believe you will listen. They believe you will call the witch hunt on them."

'Og version' yeah before or after the British empire went around the world indoctrinating their subjects with the western gender binary.

Time for a lot of you to start reading more from voices outside of mumsnet or the daily heil.

https://publicseminar.org/2018/07/gender-as-colonial-object/

100% There have been some really interesting posts and input on this thread, but posting like calumonwheels is one of the main reasons the whole debate gets so toxic rather then being able to understand and empathise and try to work together to find solutions.

Yeah my posting is the problem, not the fact that trans people are being attacked in the streets and rejected by their own families because of the transphobia exhibited in this thread, got you.

I'm not going to kid that there is some kind of happy compromise to be had between a marginalised group and a right wing media fuelled hate machine bankrolled by Tufton Street.

This has turned into an absurd level of mansplaining, it's beyond parody.