Electric Vehicles EVs

I mean I’m sitting on an average of 267 wH pm for the Model Y over 13,000 miles in the last year so that’s definitely not the case for all large EVs. It’s more efficient that our Zoe which is sitting at roughly 315wH pm.

There is absolutely no way that a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is more efficient than a Tesla Model 3 or Model Y or even a BMW iX for that matter over its lifetime.

Sounds like I did get you to bite a little on your funny car 😬

PHEV is even less helpful for the person who travels long distances on the motorway, that’s the point.

They’re sold as being environmentally friendly when, for that use case specifically, they’re worse for the environment than a normal euro 6 diesel.

We trialled a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV ,the original keeper hated it. He plugged it in every night he was at home. The electric range was about 20 miles then it became an inefficient petrol with a tiny fuel tank. He covered over 1/3 of the country so he was refilling all the time.
It’s battery kept going flat and the RAC weren’t trained to work on PHEVS so he was stranded a few times.
After 2 years he changed to a CrewCab, we passed it on to someone with a smaller area for the last 2 years of the lease (he never charged it).

The experiment was an expensive failure.

I'm surprised few people plug in their phev as purely on an anecdotal level I see tonnes of cars plugged in on drives near me.

Both PHEV Mitsubishi models have petrol engines and came out well after 2005, so there's no way they aren't ULEZ compliant.

They might own theirs or be on a different deal but it’s easier for most company car drivers to just fill up at BP on their fuel card. 30 miles of electric range is 3 litres of petrol, takes seconds, no claiming back on expenses.

Interesting. We have 4 early Zoes at work, they’re mainly used round town and mainly get <3. Though that’s a year-round average. Shows how the tech is advancing.

PHEV is even less helpful for the person who travels long distances on the motorway, that’s the point

Yeah that's what I'm saying too. They should be using mild hybrid because they aren't going to bother plugging them in. Full electric isn't necessarily the most practical for the business motorway cruiser, especially the ones you can't even get to plug in a PHEV.

Con. Job.

And EVs aren't? Once again, it's worth pointing out that EVs don't save the planet, they save the car industry. The environmental impact of EVs is slightly less than fossil fuel powered cars, but we should still be aiming to reduce the use of cars as much as we possibly can.

I don't think so.

As I said above, if we could teleport places then great, but we can't. Currently, if I want to visit my parents (23 miles away as the crow flies) I can:

1. Walk - 8h 34m
   
2. Cycle - 2h 27m
   
3. Drive - 40m
   
4. Use public transport - 2h 52m (1 train, 2 busses and 30 mins of walking)
   
   

^ Google maps figures.

I've sure I've had this conversation with you on this thread before - cars are bad, public transport is good. We agree. But unless public transport can offer a reasonable alternative to the car (outside of decent city infrastructure), people will continue to need cars well into the future.

I don't think it's fair to say that EVs are a con job. They are the [current] best mode of transport for lowering personal carbon emissions day to day for the vast majority of individuals in the UK, let alone places like the US with fucking terrible public transport.

PHEVs and Self Charging HEV market themselves as planet savers just as much as EVs do, and enjoy similar if not identical benefits to EVs in terms of tax whilst absolutely polluting more than EVs across their lifecycle. They are a con job in isolation and in comparison to EVs.

PHEVs blocking free public chargers.. triggered

Meanwhile I could get to my in-laws:

1. Walk - 25m
   
2. Cycle - 9m
   
3. Drive - 4m
   
4. Use public transport - 16m
   
   

Walking feels too far. Cycling is hostile (I would, my other half and teenagers feel differently). It's London so there is great public transport. So we drive.

A bit of making driving less attractive and cycling less hostile and everyone wins.

Absolutely. There’s no reason why the vast majority of journeys in a city can’t be made by foot, bike or public transport.

When I lived in London I cycled into work 80% of the time and took public transport almost everywhere else.

But it’s not the case for millions of people in the UK and pretending that a tiny battery is going to save a polluting SUV with an ICE is a joke.

pretending that a tiny battery is going to save a polluting SUV with an ICE is a joke.

You’re right that EVs are comfortably bestest for the flowers over their likely lifetime.

But they don’t work well for everyone yet, folk without a driveway, folk without £25k to spend, folk who do regular trips beyond the range of an EV.

I don’t think PHEVs are being marketed as anything other than a sensible compromise while the EV charging infrastructure gets itself together. Which they really, really are.

And, again, EVs are available as SUVs and PHEVs are available as small cars. The heavy SUV vs light car discussion is separate.

Don’t PHEVs need to be plugged in though, like on a driveway?

Totally agree that infrastructure needs to be improved all around but if someone doesn’t have a driveway, PHEV is an even worse choice. No way they’re going out of their way to charge a tiny battery at a station when they could spend 2 mins at a petrol station.

As for SUV vs light being a different discussion; I disagree. PHEV tech is being used to greenwash massive vehicles (look at the RR sport PHEV etc). Pathetic range, horribly larger ICE and lovely big tax discounts.

The only reason anyone buys an EV really is tax avoidance. Avoiding fuel duty, VAT on fuel, P11D hammering etc
There isn't a single EV at RRP that isn't inferior at actual car stuff than the equivalent RRP oil based juice equivalent.

People without somewhere to charge their PHEV won’t get a PHEV. That would be daft.

My point is that EVs are just as guilty of being too big and bling. Teslas S, X and Y are obscenely large, unnecessarily accelerative and massive statements of wealth in exactly the same way Range Rovers are. Audi E-trons. BMW iX. There are loads. It’s not propulsion method, it’s all cars getting too big, too heavy, too dangerous. The Rivian weighs over 3 tonnes, I can’t think of a PHEV that weighs that much, it’s 600kg heavier than the RR PHEV. The electric Hummer weighs over 4000kg, unless you’re in your 40s you need a special license to drive one. It’s madness.

I don’t think PHEVs are any bigger or heavier than others.

ETA - The Tesla X is longer, wider and heavier than the current Range Rover.

TLDR: Get a 1 litre Micra.

This is silly. They are lots better for the environment.

That’s patently untrue. EVs are quieter, quicker, have more passenger space (generally) and nicer tech, all whilst being materially cheaper to run.

Those numbers are all true but do they really matter?

Should the hummer exist? Fuck no but I’m really not sure what that has to do with a RR PHEV.

My point is simple:

Any EV in an equivalent category small, medium, larger, planet sized is going to be greener versus a PHEV. And by a long distance.

Marketing PHEVs as green is con. Giving them any tax breaks at all is criminal.

Those breaks should either go towards pure EVs or to EV or renewable infrastructure.

Those numbers are all true but do they really matter?

Yes! I’d we’re trying to be Green and safe noone should be driving anything as big and heavy as an X or Range Rover. They require too much energy to move them and are dangerous to road users in smaller vehicles.

I agree with all the other bits.

But PHEVs are better for the world than diesels. They have a good use case if you can’t do, or don’t think you can do, a proper EV. I’d rather the range anxious golfer drove a brand new RR PHEV past my suburban semi* than brand new RR diesel.

I’d obviously rather he got a new MG4 or an old Micra than either of those, but he’s a cunt.

But PHEVs are better for the world than diesels.

Not really. That’s the point.

In absolutely ideal conditions and usage they clearly are but, as the links in the last couple of pages show, they’re massively underreporting real world emissions (worse for environment and less tax collected to drive infrastructure) and people often don’t charge them meaning they’re an underpowered diesel or petrol in a heavier car.

People should either keep their old vehicle or wait for more cost effective EVs. That manufacturers are allowed to use PHEVs toward their carbon credits to avoid developing cost effective EVs is a scandal.

I'll chip in with my modest experience: we've had two relatively affordable used Leafs, powered by Dale Vince's vegan football team's wind and sunshine, have made our commuting almost a joy, initially for an 80 mile round trip, now for 40 miles. Second Leaf is being mended after someone smashed into it, and we managed (after a lot of pain) to get a Peugeot e208 as a replacement hire car which is a bit smaller but has a lovely range (probably close to 200 miles). This experience makes me even more cross about the distraction and illusion of PHEV and those "self-charging" (ha bloody ha) Toyota things. Living a few miles from the nearest bus and rail routes means we have to use cars, and EVs have made this as close to tolerable as we can get.

They are only cheaper to run because of the mismatch in tax on petrol vs electricity re my point about tax avoidance. The original owner of my Leaf swallowed 70% dep'n in their three years of ownership.
A M340i Touring is about the same price as a Model Y LR. It's faster, handles better and rides better than the Model Y. The noise over 40 mph will generally be tyre noise unless the throttle is engaged.
Not sure what you mean by nicer tech.

What a load of bollocks. Car drivers have been avoiding paying for the real cost of car ownership for decades. Fuel duty has been suppressed for years and the true cost of mass car ownership and the damage it's done to the environment means car drivers are massively in credit.