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@M_V fair enough, and thanks for the reply. I had seen some road tubs that were around £40 and thought they might be ok (they'd be ok for HHV, but not for LVV I presume?).
For example:
https://www.wiggle.co.uk/vittoria-rubino-pro-iv-g20-road-tyre-tubularOr:
https://www.merlincycles.com/vittoria-rubino-pro-g-all-round-tubular-road-tyre-700c-140868.html -
Yeah, not sure what the script is with tyres for Herne Hill but those definitely wouldn’t cut it at Lee Valley.
For indoor you definitely want something where the manufacturer states ‘track’, ‘velodrome’ or ‘pista’ in the name/description. (Except Maxxis who say a dual compound tyre is for the track).
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Doesn't need to be defined by the manufacturer as a track tyre to be useable, just not dual compound and vinegared a few times before first usage. (They do say no coloured tread as well, but try telling that to the Dutch national squad... 😂) Are they starting to say that at LVVP? May be simpler to message it that way, I suppose...? Never used to is all.
I've used Podium TT, Sprinter and Competition tubs and various incarnations of Vittoria Corsas/Chronos on LVVP with no issue whatsoever since they opened it up to the public in, what was it, 2015?
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Doesn't need to be defined by the manufacturer as a track tyre to be useable
I think things are tightening since this incident:
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Would be quite the overreaction if it was, but stranger things have happened at sea... current regs were put in place after that crash (though I'm not sure if that was a direct consequence or just a coincidence).
That was specifically about dual compound tyres, which the current regs have already addressed? Maybe a Lee Valley risk assessment done by someone who didn't actually know about the case, or track cycling in general?
No mention of it in the current LVVP or Manchester guidance though. Interestingly, Manchester Velodrome says the OP's choice of Rubino pros is one of the recommended ones: http://www.nationalcyclingcentre.com/track/information/track-bike-specification/
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People use road and TT tubs all the time at Lee Valley (and all the other velodromes I have raced at).
I used Veloflex road clinchers there for a madison training session there the other week no problem. -
I dunno how much I can say really but yeah, that incident has made a lot of people that work in indoor velodromes in the UK somewhat concerned about tyres.
The tyres were a pivotal part of that lawsuit (although maybe not the actual incident) and you’d have to be naive to think that tyres wouldn’t be heavily scrutinised in any future such cases.
In the case of where I work, we are torn between producing a list of acceptable/unacceptable tyres (which would be out of date before anyone looked at it and would rile up those brands that don’t make the ‘acceptable’ list) and producing a more general definition of what a ‘track’ tyre should be.
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I can understand it making people nervous, but I'm not sure they really understand why that case was successful. It was caused by the tyres, no doubt, but if the current guidance (no dual compound, vinegar/isopropyl alcohol etc) was adhered to, that poor guy would still be alive and no-one would have gotten sued.
Case hinged on the publishing date of that current guidance. It was published after the accident and the velodrome's defence was "there was no guidance, so we couldn't have been negligent in its absence." Reason the case was successful was they managed to dig up an article on the BC site, published before the accident, which proved proved they already knew the tyres to be dangerous, with or without the guidance. Guessing that's why it took 7 years tbh!
Do understand the need for caution (very scary, very dangerous) but in regards to that specific case, that window for litigation has been closed for years, so long as people enforce their own regs.
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It is interesting to note that the trl article says some other dual compound tyres are grippier by the measurement method used.
https://expertwitness.trl.co.uk/velodrome-case-study/
It'd maybe be a useful follow up experiment to factor in more variables such as different tyre pressures, rider weight/mass, different speeds, track & arena temperature & humidity etc to get an even wider picture of the gripiness of the range of tested tyres across various conditions that may be encountered day to day.
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Vittoria used to do a track tub with a light grey stickier section on one side
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Looking at how well mounted the tyres were on the test rig, I think the error bars on their results should maybe be slightly larger.
It looks like they've basically chopped down existing tyres and wrapped it around a 16" diameter wooden disc.
(BTW, I'm not disputing the overall conclusion. It would just be nice if the test could be done rigorously to get data that is definitely representative of real world conditions)
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Veloflex Corsa Race. Lovely 350TPI carcass, a uniform black tread and available in 23mm width for £40
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I'd avoid anything with 'Corsa' in the name as it means road doesn't it so its a bit of a giveaway that its no a track tyre.
I've not had any further involvment in the discussions about tyres between the velodromes but in Glasgow we are still trying to be kinda strict.
Is it clinchers or tubs you are after?
Clinchers I'd look at Challenge tyres or see if you can get Zaffiro Slick (must be the slick) in a wider size, we are seeing people coming in with 25s and 28s, just depends what you can fit in your frame.
Tubs, Tufo, Conti Tempo or you'd probably get away with the Sprinter as it fits the definition as it were of what a track tyre should be (single compound, minimal file type tread) and there's also a lot of precedent of them being used on the track (BC tandems use them I think).
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Thanks. I'm looking at clinchers as I've built up a bike using existing spares.
The banning of 'dual compounds' has made this all a bit of a minefield.
The Veloflex Corsa are Rubber and Silica so technically dual compound. The Vittoria Corsa actually use 4 different compounds! However, the rule seems to be in place due two failures involving tyres with different coloured bands; also made of different compounds.
I spoke to my coach who agreed that the Vittoria Pista was very popular but basically said that any 'legal' road tyre would be fine for training. He suggested the Continental GP range.
I used to use GP4000SII and GP5000 on the road but found them to be a very harsh ride. No doubt they'd be more forgiving on the track... -
My understanding of the ‘no dual compound’ thing is that it was because the different compounds can separate and delaminate. There is more risk of this because of how you load up the tire, riding on the shoulder when going slowly around the bends.
In Glasgow we are all (coaches, techs, manager) of the opinion that as there is a ‘track’ bit on Conti’s use chart on the tubs but not the clinchers they are saying they don’t do a track suitable clincher.
Those same charts though put the Sprinter firmly in the road and tt columns and not the track one but as I said there’s precedent of them being used.
Their rep has been in touch with us with, I’m led to believe, threats of suing us because we weren’t allowing riders on with sprinters (we’ve now relaxed on that) and their clinchers but when we pointed out the charts on their own website they accepted why we were doing what we were and there was talk of them having the charts changed or annotated.
The Zaffiro Slicks of course aren’t (weren’t) sold as a ‘track’ tyre (neither are the rather more treaded Rubinos that we have on the smallest hire bike, they have a 650 wheel and there are no 650 ‘track’ clinchers nor any tyres that better fit the definition of a track tyre) but the Zaffiros are what is on our hire fleet and I believe the hire bikes at Manchester and maybe Derby too.
In that bit of discussion between the velodrome that I was involved in we talked about how those tyres have been used on several tracks for a long time so there is a good base of evidence that they work. We do not have that base of evidence for other brands/models of tyres.
Is your coach in the employ of the velodrome where you will be using the bike?
Tyres are really still a grey area. Our management wanted to go the route of making a definition of a track tyre - single compound, black rubber (except in the case of a couple of very high end tyres ie dugast) with no or minimal file type tread that is consistent around the whole tyre.
Newport wanted to work with the British Standards Authority or Agency or something to establish a standard for a track tyre but this seemed to hit a dead end pretty quickly.
Of course the ironic thing is that all this attention on tyres is because of a very unfortunate incident that tyres really didn’t play a part in but they were just the one avenue where the lawyers managed to make something stick. We must presume that in any future fatal accident or serious injury enquiry tyres would again be a focus of attention.
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so would always recommend people go for a dedicated/designated track tyre.
Yet you recommend a Conti Sprinter? Effectively a road training tyre that feels like wood...
@aniki silica and rubber together isn't "dual compound" (ie two different durometers), but the silica is mixed with the rubber. Pure rubber would just disintegrate without silica or carbon or something similar in the mix. Challenge Pistas are nice indoors but don't last long on tarmac
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Track Tyres
Posted by
@crazyfields
Other than find some more budget?
Seriously though, £40 is not a lot for a decent tub. I’m thinking that might cover a Tufo but it won’t get you anything (track legal) from Vittoria or Conti I wouldn’t have thought.