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What should we do? Nothing, because it most likely won't help.
I'm not saying that we didn't help other opressed people in the past we shouldn't now. I'm saying that we are not helping other opressed people with similar needs today so how do we choose?
On what basis do Ukranians deserve help but Palestianans and Yemanis do not? Or Somalis?
What is happening is that we, the public, are being played. Because in one war the aggressor is our adversary and we have no interest in their success as they don't buy much from us. And in the others the aggressor is our ally who does buy loads of stuff from us.
There is no principle at work here, it's pure economic interest. I would love there to be a principled foreign policy - I cheered loudly when New Labour came in with that in 1997 - but it didn't last five minutes, certainly not five years to Iraq or to Saudi arms deals. And I don't believe it is going to start any time soon.
frank9755-
Why not flip it and help everyone?
Tbh I think there's more than money at stake here. Europe is helping Ukraine as it could be us next. America is helping Ukraine to side with Europe but also due to their history with Russia / USSR
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Because in one war the aggressor is our adversary and we have no interest in their success as they don't buy much from us. And in the others the aggressor is our ally who does buy loads of stuff from us.
This isn't consistent with the facts:
United Kingdom Exports to Saudi Arabia was US$4.14 Billion during 2021
United Kingdom Exports to Russia was US$3.82 Billion during 2021
Source: United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade
Pretty similar scale of exports.
The Russia number is actually half what it was a decade ago, and I am sure that is connected to sanctions.
Ps - I make no excuses for the blind eye we turn to the Saudi war against Yemen. It is appalling.
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You could view the Palestinian situation as Western Democracies supporting another democracy which has been under threat from Soviet/Russian supported Dictatorships with the Palestinians as unlucky pawns.
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What should we do? Nothing, because it most likely won't help.
We actually can do something - like spreading awareness by protesting near embassies / writing your MPs or "fighting on the front of information" - which is quite big here in Lithuania and some cases are bizarre - like spamming random Russian numbers with messages like:
"Hello - as you know there's a war in Ukraine and we're doing a survey - would you go fighting if you were drafted? Reply 'No' or 'Yes'"
And people actually reply "Nyet! Nyet!" - of course everything's in Russian.
More "real" help would be donating money to various organisations (either for refugees or for soldiers) or clothing. Unless you imply that even that kind of help likely won't help - which is of course possible.
Even more "real" help is going near Polish border and volunteering.
And the "realest" help, of course, would be enlisting in a foreigners legion of Ukraine. I've read that around 20 thousand people from 52 countries enlisted, some of them are already fighting.
Just saw this: some ex military from England are already there. https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1500706664630165507
I'm saying that we are not helping other opressed people with similar needs today so how do we choose? On what basis do Ukranians deserve help but Palestianans and Yemanis do not? Or Somalis?
The sad and obvious truth is that we can't help everyone. We can't solve all the problems.
I choose caring for Ukraine because it's 500 kilometers from my hometown and we share the same heritage of Soviet Occupation.There's plenty of evil in the world but if we switch subject from Ukraine to Yemenis or Uyghurs then it's nothing but whataboutism.
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By “we” do you mean the U.K. government? Because it doesn’t help it pretty much never has helped. Globally our net good column is in the negative.
We have independent agencies that try to help all these people using money donated by British individuals, but the government? Nah don’t bother they’re effectively cunts, always have been.
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That's a rather simplistic argument if you don't mind my saying so. For one thing you're overlooking the newness of the Ukraine refugee issue. The perceived needs of Ukrainians have shock value now, but that will fade. In a few months some people will say "I've already given to Ukrainians once, I can't keep doing it". Others will get bored and move on to the next crisis. Palestinians, Yemenis, Somalis and others have all been through the same cycle. A DEC appeal is started when a crisis is new, but as the DEC organisers would no doubt confirm, public support wanes over time.
The public also get crisis fatigue, because there are so many crises happening simultaneously, and the almost universal availability of electricity and camera phones and internet services and social media means that we get information about every crisis pushed at us all the time. It would be easy to make a list of 500 groups of people in desperate need, people whose lives we could save for the price of a beer. Then there's the animals in need. And the plants. Getting the help you deserve is a competitive business.
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What should we do? Nothing, because it most likely won't help.
OK, I'm confused. Are you saying:
- The people of Ukraine want to resist an invasion by Russia, but they're wrong, you know better, and they should in fact just give in and become a puppet state of Putin's authoritarian Russian regime; or
- The people of Ukraine should resist an invasion by Russia, but we shouldn't help them, because we haven't helped other oppressed people and consistency in doing the wrong thing is more important than doing the right thing in this case.
If there's a third option, do tell.
- The people of Ukraine want to resist an invasion by Russia, but they're wrong, you know better, and they should in fact just give in and become a puppet state of Putin's authoritarian Russian regime; or
kboy
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Dibble
dau
Alf0nse
nick_h.
Brommers
I'm aware of the term Perfidious Albion and the reasons why it exists, but thanks for the history lesson.
On a practical front, what do you think the UK should do when the democratically-elected and, at present, apparently wildly popular government of Ukraine asks for military assistance?
'Negotiations and an end to the war' is not an answer. It's the equivalent of 'thoughts and prayers'. Negotiations are already unway. The end of the war is an objective. If you want to reach that objective, you have to have a plan on how to get there. And I hope we'd agree that asking the Russians nicely if they'll just go home isn't going to work.
So, do you think we should refuse requests for military aid from the democratically elected government of Ukraine because we haven't helped other oppressed people in the past, and we'd like to keep a level playing field?
Do you think we should refuse, because we're Perfidious Albion and that's a track record we're proud of?
Or do you think we should refuse because we're in the happy position of not being invaded ourselves, so we can just sit on the sidelines and bask in our own moral superiority while doing nothing except spouting warm words about negotiations and peace?