Russian invasion of Ukraine

If you look at my post I said the far left, not the left. I'm not going to produce a list, but George Monbiot hit the nail on the head in this thread:

https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1497511988322258948

I will give you one example - Richard Medhurst.

In terms of STW, I know we went over this ground last week, but I can't reconcile how they believe Ukraine should be entitled to "self-determination", but it should also be barred from seeking to join international organisations.

Just while you are jumping on me, can I ask why it is ok to call Keir Starmer "a brazenly hawkish flag shagger", as was written in the post I responded to and that started this dialogue? Is that temperate language? What have I said about anyone that is worse than that?

Stop the war

606 seems to be arguing that because “the West” isn’t solving every problem in world the West should not do anything.
Hard to decide if this is vague Whataboutism or jealousy that their cause is not the center of attention.

Let me be absolutely clear: I live in Manitoba where there are over 180,000 people of Ukrainian descent. I have dozens of friends who have been there.
The Russian invasion has direct impact on many people I know.

In terms of STW, I know we went over this ground last week, but I can't reconcile how they believe Ukraine should be entitled to "self-determination", but it should also be barred from seeking to join international organisations.

We did go over this. And I'll make this point again: No one is barring them from seeking to join. The position is that no one has a sovereign right to be a member of Nato (or any other international organisation). This is a position shared by many people on the left and the right and the centre. It is a sane position. It is not a position unique to STW.

But that's a different conversation. You claimed there are people on the "far left" who don't "recognise the people of Ukraine have a right to self determination" and think Ukraine should "simply accept being a vassal state of Putin." I don't think this is a particularly widespread view and it's annoying to keep reading it spewed as fact.

"Hardly anyone gives a fuck about Ukraine, unless their cleaner is upset...”

i find that quite offensive on so many levels.

Lots of people are upset and rightly so.

When people ask for NATO support, why aren't we sending troops etc, they know that would mean complete global destruction right?

Or am I understanding that wrong?

Did you see Owen Jones suggesting Ukraine should be a 'buffer zone'? He was called out and forced into an apology for it, but the fact he said it in the first place is indicative of the mindset.

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By extension, do these people think that Putin would be pacified if NATO membership was off the table (which it effectively was/is anyway due to war in Donbas and annexation of the Crimea), but Ukraine was permitted to join the EU? News flash - he wouldn't be.

Where do you get off deciding whether or not Ukraine can join NATO?

Really. What gives you that right?

I don't have that right and I'm not claiming that I do?

I think he's saying that its a decision for the members to take, not sovereign right to part of it. Like the EU.

Did you see Owen Jones suggesting Ukraine should be a 'buffer zone'? He was called out and forced into an apology for it, but the fact he said it in the first place is indicative of the mindset.

I didn't see that, no. But:

So Owen Jones is the person who you meant when you said the far left don't believe Ukraine has a right to self-determination and should be a vassal to Putin?

Cool. If that's his position he's wrong. Let's call him out on it. In fact, sounds like people did and he made his position clearer and apologised.

Yes, post deleted

Actual wtf from American lunatics

1 Attachment

STW?

Stop the War isn't it?

Yes stop the war.

On the other hand, I am impressed with Paul Mason.

Hear, hear.

SingleTrackWorld?

Glad it's not just me!

Me as well!

suggestions of a pro-Ukrainian Chechen unit:

https://twitter.com/Xazubazu/status/1498621624647442436

Probably zero probability, but a new Chechen insurgency while the Kadyrovtsky are off in Ukraine would be an interesting headache for Putin. Reading a bit more on it, there really is no chance of that due to the brutal suppression in Chechenya.

Are any of you communicating with Russians that are currently in Russia? Had a rummage through my phone for any +7 numbers and found a couple of not quite finished Whatsapp conversations from when I was in St Petersburg a few years. Met some great people.
Want to re-start the chats just to see what it's like being them right now, but can't quite work out how to approach it.

Timothy Snyder demolishing the argument that NATO expansionist tendencies are the cause of this. I am not aware that there is anyone in Stop the War who can rival his scholarship on Eastern Europe:

https://twitter.com/democracynow/status/1498660961837887489

When you don't check the juniors slides before they present them and they give away sensitive info like planning to carry on to Moldova

https://twitter.com/Den_2042/status/1498674777032114184

https://twitter.com/delfoo/status/1498632048025772032

https://twitter.com/delfoo/status/1498667266027802627