Chat about Novel Coronavirus - 2019-nCoV - COVID-19

#rep

I think the reason most got vaccinated is because they thought it could stop the old n fragile from getting the virus in the first place and so that things could get back to normal in terms of day to day life if we were all vaccinated enough. This now seem to be completely out the window considering the infections rate amongst the worlds best vaccinated populations like israel for example. Vaccination has failed in this regard thanks to the new variant.

Yes, but the situation without the vaccines would be almost unimaginable.

You'd be talking about death rates considerably higher, a health service that couldn't keep up at all and there would have been many times as many non-Covid related deaths.

No vaccine is perfect, but it's a fuck of a lot better to have imperfect vaccines than not.

Remember that swedish epedemic dr giseke or similar who claimed we were all going to get it in interviews like 2 years ago or somtin.

This is your monthly reminder that immunity isn't binary. Having 3 jabs could mean that when you do get infected you just have to isolate at home for 10 days with a few days of sniffles and a bit of a cough, instead of:-
a) weeks/months off work sick
b) a possibility of a nice hospital stay with a CPAP mask on for a week
c) getting to the point you need to be intubated and placed under heavy sedation
d) or even a mild case of death.

And if you do survive you've got the added bonus of the possibility of long covid that dramatically affects you for the rest of your life (or a significant portion thereof).

I'll chose the vaccine route personally.

Oh for sure! I would be worried sick without vaccines for my parents etc they are 86 and 80 but in good health.

Its just v different than i hoped it would be.

"Remember that swedish epedemic dr giseke or similar who claimed we were all going to get it in interviews like 2 years ago or somtin. Turns out he may be right just his timeline was way off :/
“

That was never really in any doubt, there are 4* other human coronaviruses** we will get reinfected in 8-36 month cycles just like influenza/rhinovirus/common colds.
big difference with covid 19 is we don’t have a lifetime of built up immunity hence ‘novel’, vaccination is the safest way of giving your naive immune system a head start.

*not including SARS/MERS
** Pigs and poultry have loads, there’s something like 30 approved coronavirus vaccines for them, they don’t do long term studies though as they are culled before any long term effects become apparent...

Re cases and vaccination

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Not sure what your point is with those graphs. We've got a lot more infections because we've got a new much more transmissible strain. If we didn't have as many people vaccinated the case rate graphs would be even steeper/higher.

But I think your viewpoint is based on a misunderstanding of the purposes of vaccines.

Taking a strict interpretation: vaccines do not, and can not, prevent infections.

For your immune system to do anything the virus has to get into your body. At that point you have an infection.

Vaccine based immunity, or naturally acquired immunity for that matter, isn't some kind of Ready Brek glow or magic shield that prevents the virus from ever getting inside you. (You do have some natural defences that can help prevent getting infected, such as saliva, nasal hair [it has a use!], etc.)

The question is how well your body can fight it once you are infected.

Ideally the body quickly recognises the virus and dispatches the suitable bits of your immune system to deal with before it has a chance to replicate to any meaningful level.

Next best option is that the virus does get a hold but the immune system deals with it before it leads to any symptoms.

Next best is mild symptoms.

etc, and a sliding scale all the way up to death.

However, most infections will never reach the stage where the virus has managed to replicate to meaningful levels and so the host will never test positive or notice any symptoms.

Immunity (innate, naturally acquired or vaccine boosted) is all there to shift the outcome down the scale of seriousness and, ideally, towards to end where you never even had a clue that you'd been infected at any point.

So, in reality, vaccines do prevent many infections getting to the levels that would trigger a positive test or symptoms. So, in that respect, they do prevent infections if your definition of an infection is "positive test" or "symptoms". But whole point of vaccines is to improve the body's response to the endless inevitable infections and lessen your chances of serious symptoms if the infection progresses beyond a trivial/transient infection.

Vaccines also help reduce transmission as fewer cases would get to the point where they are infectious.

Not trying to argue, but the correlation between vaccinated and catching covid can be explained as a these people are testing more, and correctly. Also that the vaccinated are going out more as their opportunity to socialise so increase exposure. Then there are the different strains of covid.

There would be a need to greater analysis of the raw data to gain anything meaningful.

Occurred to me that vaccinated perhaps more Covid aware and likely to test & report. Unvaccinated only confront virus when need hospitalization.

Load of people tested positive; not many die/hospitalised = success?

What they said

Not as many vaccinated people compared to unvaccinated people need hospital.

Posting random graphs show research has been done.

The problem with the “do your own research” crew is they often don’t have the cognitive skillset to interpret the data.

Windrush square in central Brixton has tons of PCR availability today, if needed. Walk in caravan outside of the library.

I dont think thats true on any scale that would greatly change statistics in this regard. Its not like everyone who has not taken the vaccine are anti-vaxxers. A big part i would assume are ppl with concearns about their health and dont like to put "unknowns" into their bodies. I can see quite a big chunk of unvaccinated beeing even more eager to test their symptoms as they know it could get worse for them without a vaccine.

One could also speculate that a huge chunk of vaccinated ppl are the old and frail and as such have a lot less social contacts so should be less likely to catch covid in the first place yet show up as much in the statistics as having caught it.

Many ways to speculate around this. Regardless of what the findings might be when we get to know them eventually the take away right now for me is that vaccines does not do enough of a difference to stop the spread of the virus.

Isn’t the point though that vaccines mitigate the worse effects the virus both on a personal level and from a national healthcare perspective, despite widespread transmission which is inevitable in an open society?

anti-vaxxers. A big part i would assume are ppl with concearns about their health and dont like to put "unknowns" into their bodies.

At what point do they become anti-vaxxers? Unless they have advanced degrees in the specific scientific discipline, every vaccine they’ve ever had put ‘unknowns’ in their bodies. If they’re not sure by this point about covid vaccine safety, what will it take to change their minds?

I dont know. Do you think that everyone who has not taken the covid vaccine are "anti-vaxxers"?

For me ppl who deny the benefits of vaccines and or think its just a hoax in order to get controle of the masses or some similar plot would be the ones who are "anti-vaxxers" This is also why i mentioned this group as they would be the ones with perhaps a different behavior pattern during the pandemic than the norm. Id think they are a very small part of the unvaccinated totals.

Ppl who are cautious about the covid vaccines and have as such not taken it up to this point would not be that category that deserves the label, for me that is.

Its certainly one of the great benefits of vaccination. Again one we would not want to be without..

But it was not the selling point to the masses of mass vaccination from the onset of covid vaccines.

Regardless of what the findings might be when we get to know them eventually the take away right now for me is that vaccines does not do enough of a difference to stop the spread of the virus.

This is a bit of a daft statement really, they have slowed the spread of the virus and given those vaccinated protection against serious illness and death. They haven't immediately stopped the spread of the virus but then enough people in vaccinated populations and enough mostly unvaccinated populations existed to allow it to spread, and now mutate to avoid some of the protection provided by the vaccines. Even vaccines that "worked" by fully stopping something, like smallpox, or almost stopping it like polio have taken decades to do so with global programs. Things would be much worse without vaccines slowing the spread.

Do you think that everyone who has not taken the covid vaccine are "anti-vaxxers"?

No, as you said there can be many reasons for being unvaxxed.

The most prominent reason, and most concerning imo, is when people feel reticence or fear about the possibility of the covid vaccines causing them harm, with no statistically meaningful, factual basis for this fear.

Some of these people will be naturally predisposed to distrust or anxiety about these issues; it seems that the majority of objectors are specifically concerned about the covid vaccines. With no scientific evidence to back up either camp’s concerns, the line between anti-vaxxers and anti-covid-vaxxers gets pretty blurry.

*Add onto this that anti covid vaxxers use many anti vax arguments to justify their positions, and the line seems to disappear entirely.

Regarding vaccinations not preventing infection I'm sure some vaccines do. There is exposure/presentation to the immune system but no infection. Sterilising immunity I think it's called. HPV vaccine rings a bell. Mind you it's a long time since I read my Essential Immunology by Ivan Roitt lol

Er Polio?

EDIT: HPV too

A big part i would assume are ppl with concearns about their health and dont like to put "unknowns" into their bodies

That one makes me laugh, especially as these people don't seem to know what goes in their food.

We all know that it protects against serious illness and death. Its like this is repeated to validate something that its not up for discussion. Is it in this context u are discussing this, wether or not vaccines are good or not? Am i in your mind saying something to the effect of vaccines are pointless, bad or should not have been used etc etc?

This is not whats discussed, at least not by me.