That Starmer fella...

It's worth remembering that the UK is, at heart, quite a classically liberal/small-c conservative country.

Not really appropriate for the Starmer thread but I have heard a bit of the sentiment "I wish there was an actual conservative party to vote for" recently. I suspect it's a big group, some of them are currently voting anyone but Tory, but possibly more are just voting big C conservative - so another option would split that vote.

That's interesting - what aspect of conservatism do you think they're after - i.e. social or economic (or something else I can't think of?)

Sure, but to claim it has to be moved away from ignores what people have actually voted for in the past 40 years.

My guess (and this is a shot in the dark) would be that there are sections of the Tories' traditional base who are offended by Johnson's uncouthness/brazen 'sleaze' (for want of a better word).

Either that or there are people who think that the Tories' rhetorical promise of various regional investment programmes, plus their spending throughout covid, constitute some sort of socialist betrayal of true conservatism

Yeah I can see either as possible - could also be that the radical / transformative brexit project is non-conservative

I assume it's both. I think there are quite a lot of small c conservatives who dislike neoliberal economic values and want to see conservatism as a route to 'social good' not greed.

Edit: yes agree also the brazen corruption and lying is a turn off.

No, it really doesn't ignore that.

What's the point of a Labour party with a socially conservative and fiscally centre/conservative agenda? There is a previously Labour voting block out there that has now realised it can get that from the party with Conservative writ large in it's actual name. The fact that Tory fiscal policy has been forced centre this past year(s) along with other superficially progressive agendas means Labour is obsolete if it wants to squeeze onto the centre ground. The votes aren't going to come from the aging Tory vote from 2019.

People vote for what motivates them. Caring about people, thinking about how to make the world better for all, having a more caring society which looks after you. It's not an easy sell in to an environment where it looks like nobody cares.

This. The country is (on the whole) becoming more and more about me, me, me. We are further than ever from a society that will vote for the greater good. And the current government is showing that lying and selfishness gets rewards as an example to us all.

I get the impression that the Quiet Voter, aka small c conservatives's are not that politically attuned and it's more a case of perceived social values – i.e middle england traditionalism / individualism

Sadiq Khan didn't really give any real reason to vote for him for a second term, other than he wasn't Shawn Bailey

That's what he did the first time too. 'Not being Zak Goldsmith' won it then, but in the meantime we're meant to think that he's some important player.

It's a truism that I'd rather have 'not a Tory' over 'Tory', but I've not found him a particularly interesting character.

the radical / transformative brexit project

Do you really believe it was not a conservative project?
It's been fought against internally within the Conservative Party since joining (longer arguably), and the politics of it rested squarely on the reverence of socially conservative values like national identity and sovereignty.

I believe it's a Conservative (party) project, completely.

I don't believe it's (small c) conservative - it's the antithesis of conservatism as an ideology that means you try not to change things other than slowly and carefully. It's practically revolutionary, overthrowing our economic links overnight.

I'm not saying labour should emulate Tory policies - of course there has to be differentiation.

I'm saying that there is zero evidence in my lifetime of a further left labour party commanding enough public support to win an election.

They have to differentiate themselves from the Tories, sure - of course they do - but I don't know where you think this left voting bloc is that will put them into power. There just aren't enough voters who want that, as shown every time it is tried.

Not wholly convinced but do get your point.

I'd argue the aims and achievements were regressive (or rather anti-progressive) rather than progressive, which I think is the domain of conservative values.

I mean, the idea of a conservative revolution is not totally unprecedented

Yeah obviously depends what you mean by conservative - but given the original post was people thinking the Conservatives weren't conservative enough, seemed a possible position some might take (i.e. they vote conservative as a "we don't want stuff to change" vote)

I see this kind of sentiment fairly regularly. Rightly or wrongly, Labour are viewed as the "woke" party now.

Challenge is what to do with the people who post this? They are, in my experience, cunts.

How do you begin to address someone who posts this when the Tories just turn the crank on the grievance machine a few times and said poster starts frothing at the mouth whilst sporting a diamond-cutter grade erection.

The country is (on the whole) becoming more and more about me, me, me. We are further than ever from a society that will vote for the greater good.

I firmly believe that almost everyone has always voted in their own interests; I don't think very many people at all have ever gone to the ballot box and had the following internal monologue: 'Well, voting X would be better for me, but voting Y is probably what this country really needs'.

And much as it may grate, I will tell you for nothing that there are a very substantial number of people, from Surrey gammons to Sunderland dockers, who identify very strongly with the sentiments on that 'I never cared that...' meme. The Tories know that, and subtly play to it; Labour also know that, and dismiss them as wrong/bigots. The latter is not a good electoral strategy.

Challenge is what to do with the people who post this? They are, in my experience, cunts.

It depends on what you're asking. Are you asking how does the Left reach these people, or how do you persuade them they're wrong?

Idk if you can pigeonhole Brexit like that.

It is undoubtedly a Conservative Party product. But until after the referendum plenty on the left viewed the EU as an white Christian capitalist imperialist force for evil.

Every conservative neoliberal print media organisation was dead set against it.

Calling it one way or the other just depends on your bias.

Not denying the existence of support for Brexit in some liberal / left circles, but at the time seemed coopted/opportunistic rather than driving the (£350m a week) bus.

Anyway, we're way off topic

Thought it was more interesting discussing the direction the labour party was taking rather than weak memes mocking Starmer personally, but YMMV

I don't think very many people at all have ever gone to the ballot box and had the following internal monologue: 'Well, voting X would be better for me, but voting Y is probably what this country really needs'.

I think plenty of people have thought that. There's a lot of people who have voted both Labour and Conservative (probably especially conservative) against their own self interest.

.

One person I know who said this recently (I was surprised) I would describe as progressive and socially liberal, very much not anti-woke. I think they are looking for what they see as economic prudence and relatively small government, although they would consider public services and social welfare essential. To me it doesn't make sense, but in their perception I think they are looking for 'decency' (not Conservative) and not ideology (not Labour). I think the people that historically voted Lib Dems probably fall into this camp more or less.