That Starmer fella...

Ok that is fair, reading it again!

I guess I mean in terms of labour party policy. Although to be fair even in Corbyn times there were big rifts re. Brexit etc.

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1375159513301590020?s=19

Flag bollocks

Urgh

Flag bollocks is the worst, surely there must have been a “couldn’t give a shit” response in the yougov survey.

The percentages don't add to 100%, so I guess it's them.

I think less flegs is probably a good thing, but I can't imagine any form of strong opinion at such an infantile issue other than being strongly annoyed that I was wasting my time in answering the question

I have no problem at all with flags being flown on public buildings, I really couldn't give a shit.

I do feel strongly that Labour have decided that this kind of culture war posturing is the way to win back lost voters.

Part of the reason the Tories won in 2019 was that, whatever he might lie about, people at least knew that Boris Johnson meant what he said about Brexit. Most people can surely see that Starmer's triangulation just makes him look disingenuous.

people at least knew that Boris Johnson meant what he said about Brexit

Urgh. This may have been why they won, but I think many of the people who didn't vote Conservative (and some who did) thought Boris was a disingenuous fucker who would say anything to stay in power. It doesn't mean "most" people believed him, it means enough people did.

Of course, and he is (a disingenuous fucker), but ever since he decided that Brexit was the horse to back he had been clear that he would go to reckless lengths to deliver it, which means that he has secured his reputation as a man of his word for people who wanted Brexit to happen and feared that others were trying to block it.

I think even a lot of people who didn't like the idea of Brexit too much were thoroughly sick of it being the dominant political issue, and didn't trust that Corbyn could make it go away as quickly as Johnson.

Starmer doesn't have that "credibility" yet and I worry that these efforts to get behind the flag now are too transparent.

You can't beat the Tory's at flags, as they are proving with gusto.

The thing is, loving the flag IS culture war bullshit. But so is all that being ashamed of the flag stuff Labour have been doing for the last five years - and at least this is the kind of culture war bullshit that doesn't turn off 60% of the people in the country. If you don't think the perception of Labour as being ashamed of the flag was a part of why Corbyn's response to Skripal was so poisonous to our chances of power, I don't know what to tell you. This stuff is all related.

Personally I don't give a fuck about flags, but I recognise that's not a position shared by the voters of this country. If we want Labour to get back into power, we need to go out and meet them where they are.

If you're not a fan of flags on public buildings keep away from France.

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I don't think Labour has to pretend to care about flags. Merely not mock or resist those who do (the Workington man for example)

At least Blair and Britpop pretended the flag was a fun expression of national identity. It's all so po-faced at the moment, being disapproved of for not "respecting" the flag.

Exactly, or exclude those people who really do care about the flag by appearing to be ashamed of it.

So is the conclusion Starmer needs to wear a union jack suit to next PMQ's and then ask Johnson why he isn't wearing one?

Exactly, or exclude those people who really do care about the flag by appearing to be ashamed of it.

Wot?

Why add that caveat? Can't people hate symbols of nationalism and not be excluded from whatever it is you want to exclude them from (in this context, the Labour party)? Is the culture war fine so long as it's used to exclude those who burn flags?

Labour should give zero fucks about flags. The end.

At least Blair and Britpop pretended the flag was a fun expression of national identity. It's all so po-faced at the moment, being disapproved of for not "respecting" the flag.

Even then, it was kind of being re-claimed wasn't it, like it was starting to be acceptable to acknowledge it - like Noel's guitar and Gerri's dress started to use it for new, positive reasons.
I don't think that process has really continued, it's not a particularly inclusive or progressive symbol to have hanging around.

Labour should give zero fucks about flags. The end.

This, I should think. Talk about something else instead.

I think I must've explained my point badly because I'm not sure your response follows from what I meant to say.

I don't give a fuck about flags, but a vast majority of voters feel very positive about them. When we as a party of government appear to feel ashamed of that flag, it not only excludes those voters, it also feeds into the idea that we are weak on security. I think it's reasonable for a voter to want the potential leader of a country to be proud of that country and want the best for it. Showing that we are not ashamed of the flag which represents that country is a good way NOT to exclude those people.

Yeah, I must have misunderstood.

"exclude those people who really do care about the flag by appearing to be ashamed of it" to me read as a proposition. That is: "People who are ashamed of flags (and therefore actually do care in some sense) should be excluded." I.e., people who say "fuck that flag, burn it! I couldn't care about flags less!" should be fucked off out of the party.

But I think I get you now: "[don't] exclude those people who really do care about the flag by appearing to be ashamed of it." This was probably clear if read as a direct reply, so apologies if this is what you mean and I missed it. I'd say this falls under the whole category of "don't fucking worry about flags" though.

Poppies, however!

Flags and Poppies, two things that can get in the fucking sea as far as I'm concerned

isnt the over reliance on the symbolism of flags and poppies just endemic to a political system that increasingly lacks any fundamental ideological base? (on both sides)

I think voters couldn't give a shit about flags and poppies, unless they've had the possiblities of actual political change taken from then, so the attention is diverted onto idolatry and empty, vague simulacra stuff, like flags, poppies and culture war shit.

i.e. all this flag shagging is simply a hyper specific moment in UK's current politics where Boris's politics lack any real coherence or project after Brexit is 'done'. And Starmer's project seems increasingly vacuous of anything other than poll/research group-led kneejerk reactions

Did I miss the bit in Corbyn's manifestos about being ashamed of flags?

I genuinely don't remember it ever being a topic of discussion, and I was even more involved in politics then.

He obviously hated the flag and poppies, he was a bloody communist that couldn't bow low enough.

And he rode a bike.

Didn't Emily Thornberry resign over flags.