EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

That’s the ones. So some news must travel.

Possibly

Totally. :)

That’s the ones. So some news must travel.

Partially because it’s Brexit related; it affect England as well if trade plummet.

Reading the news, Labour doesn't seem to be that bothered with NI atm (I know bigger fires to fight, and technically don't stand here but work with the SDLP) and of course we know the Cons are not, so ultimately the depressing conclusion I can draw is that England does whatever, and NI is simply too small.

Then the DUP is as always just making everything worse and SF doesn't take their seats, how convenient!

As TGR said before, a united Ireland ref is years of and is going to be very, very heated (unless it's, oh, 30 years off? Maybe it's ok then?)

We have to hope the anger doesn't boil over here, but then what is Brexit but anger/grief for ordinary people? Even the Brexiters are mostly pissed off and then won ;)

Good column on RTE
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2021/0216/1197357-covid-comment/

Like the description on Johnson NI priorities;

“The vaccine strategy has become his 'get out of jail' card.

Based on past Boris behaviour, his focus for the immediate future will be where he is winning. Part of his persona is his ability to find a berth in a Titanic lifeboat while others struggle in the icy water. “

“We have to hope the anger doesn't boil over here”
I suspect a certain inevitably about anger boiling over but I’m not sure who unionists will channel it against- bombs down south, general strike again, random riots against the police. They will be fighting against a deal they signed up to. Strong chance that whatever happens GB will just,in reality, ignore it as noise over the water and this may increase disenchantment with the Union.

Brexit still on course to achieve what armed resistance couldn’t.

^ yeah Johnson doesn't care, he just wants to be PM consequences for others be damned.

A UI is no solution to bitterness unfortunately. In a way I can empathize a little with the unionists, they got used by their leadership.

I got used as an immigrant. Not a pleasant feeling.

So I hope that people can go beyond the "you voted for it" yes they did, but that doesn't mean they haven't been used. Everybody needs a space to have grievances heard. But of course all the people that warned the unionists, including moderate unionists, are pissed off too.

The logical thing is perhaps for unionism to become pro rejoin so that the irish sea border vanishes and the UI question can be put off again, but that is not the sort of thought I see atm.

Though Alliance is attracting moderate unionists, if the DUP vote gets split between them and the "one man bigot band" TUV party and people get fed up with the shinners, perhaps a little more moderate voices can steer us.

Meanwhile the DUP is now trying to overturn part of the abortion laws here, FFS, jog on you idea starved ghouls.

Continuity European Research Group aka COVID Recovery Group are now saying "important national decisions should only be made after careful, Treasury led, cost-benefit analyses that are made public"

Problem for Starmer is that the way to resolve these problems is to (dramatically) increase alignment with the EU - basically we should be aiming for Norway, and all of Labour's efforts should be to get us there. But, with the UK media landscape being so far to the right, and so toxic, the second Labour put their collective head above the parapet they'll draw "Starmer backs vassal state, Brave Boris says Never Never Never!" type bilge that will fan the fire of the culture war and likely increase Johnsons popularity. I think John Bull needs to feel the pain and be confronted by, and crucially have to accept that we've made a decision at the behest of pantomime toffs and spivs and a campaign that played on the emotions of thick racist cunts who are too shy to admit that they're natural home is the NF. And pensioners.

TL:DR Starmer needs some pigeons coming home to roost before he can start pushing Norway/EFTA. And probably for Murdoch to die.

Maybe a completely independent NI, like Scotland is aiming for, tell everyone to fuck off!

I’m not sure traditional unionism had the mental agility to become pro join - the abortion story being an example.

In a way I can empathize a little with the unionists, they got used by their leadership.

I think it’s more accurate to say they let themselves get used, with this bullshit steadfast adherence to the concept of a true-blue UK which no one else parrots, and cutting your nose off to spite your face is a different thing.

The DUP thought they were using the alliance with May to get a hard North/South border, then Johnson shafted them.

NI is too small for that, if we had oil maybe but no...nothing like that. Just a lot of good rain :p

A different federal Ireland with NI in some sort of "joint custody" may be an option, bit of an experiment but I think Malta has something like that, I can't recall but there is a European country with a system where you can choose which government you vote in/pay taxes.

Sure, as somebody wrote "unionism is like a beaten dog, the more it gets abused the more it tries to love its owner" but I am not buying that the DUP who cynically took dark money did not know they could use the deep ingrained sentiment that to enrich themselves. D**ds / Arlene / Ian Paisley Jr your man in Lisburn aren't stupid.

Then with FPTP if you vote any other party in many NI seats your vote is effectively lost, reinforcing the orange vs green voting. The unionists feel stuck and that I can understand as well. (but as they did vote for it, well, I don't know what it will take them to find a more positive view)

RE Labour, if whole of the UK was like NI (customs union/goods and agriculture EU rules) that may work, I get they cannot touch FOM atm. And Starmer can point out Corbyn offered that to May but she refused. Hard Tory Brexit!

Of course it has to go wrong badly, and all the promises of decentralization/investing in the North of England are already broken, but Starmer also needs to go hard with ideas, many of Corbyn's ideas were popular. They need rebranding and people are more positive towards better benefits than ever.

Immigration has dropped out of the news cos "we have control now" (vomit) so that is not a big problem for him.

DUP are definitely the bad guys here, and NI had no problem with the backstop.

Coldwar Steve nailing it today.

I think it’s more accurate to say they let themselves get used, with this bullshit steadfast adherence to the concept of a true-blue UK which no one else parrots, and cutting your nose off to spite your face is a different thing.

+1 to this. I have a hard time buying the "We got lied to!" bunch. Especially for people in NI who voted for this. For folks on the UK mainland sure, where to draw the lines around NI in a UK/EU split is probably not a step that they knew/cared about. But for people in NI, you'd have to be incredibly naive/blinkered to not see that this is going to result in a new border (whichever side it may be on). For me, voting for that is effectively saying you're fine going back to how things were in the not too distant past.

I imagine the unionists who voted for it were doing so believing that they'd further distance themselves from the South, but in trying to screw over another group it's just backfired on themselves. Bit of a recurring theme when it comes to Brexit. It's hard not to see the UK as Wile E. Coyote here.

It's hard not to see the UK as Wile E. Coyote here.

But without the charm.

Okay this is excellent.

I just have Dad’s Army theme stuck in my head now.

I’m not so sure about that. Hard border is the recipe for disaster here. It really cannot be policed safely and effectively. I have a notion that I predicted the Irish Sea border some time ago as anyone here knows the implications of a hard land border. The DUP had a good bargaining position until the election when that position was lost. They, effectively, are now a dog with no teeth as far as the UK government are concerned.
NI continues to be the hard to get at pimple on the arse of the UK. As it sits, the UK border should be policed on the mainland as there is free movement (excepting Covid things in the south) across the land border.

I've spoken to several I don't think it's that simple.

Sure any ones that will vote tuv instead of DUP are hardliners. Feck em.

And it's also definitely true Brexit voting areas were far from the UK border on Ireland.

And yep it massively backfired.

But the Unionist papers were not that honest about Brexit and here too some people saw it as low risk, economic reward.

To say -all- voted to spite a united Ireland / SF is a bit simple and simple stories can kill here.

Still waiting on Jim Allister's head to explode from rage, scanners style 😁

And the hilarious anvil drops ;)

I’m not so sure about that. Hard border is the recipe for disaster here. It really cannot be policed safely and effectively. I have a notion that I predicted the Irish Sea border some time ago as anyone here knows the implications of a hard land border. The DUP had a good bargaining position until the election when that position was lost. They, effectively, are now a dog with no teeth as far as the UK government are concerned.

NI continues to be the hard to get at pimple on the arse of the UK. As it sits, the UK border should be policed on the mainland as there is free movement (excepting Covid things in the south) across the land border.

Do the DUP care that it's an impossible task? I would guess that they just want the massive hardening of positions that the return of British soldiers to the border and NI would create.

Demographic change over time and the gradual reduction of strong Union beliefs are the existential enemy of the DUP - setting the border on fire to solve that may be a price they're willing to pay.

I think hardening the border is a step too far for even the DUP. The resultant backlash does not bear contemplation. The main problem with the political (and some so-called ‘political’) parties is that they are completely opposed to each other - no middle ground exists. Things are slowly changing but we have had 40 years of aggression which has recently reduced but there is an underlying current that could bring it back again quite quickly. The border issue being one of the reasons that violence could return very quickly.
I’m not sure it’s been mentioned here but there was a thread on Reddit relating to why people vote for a particular party and the one reason which wasn’t mentioned was history - I found this rather odd. Families will vote for a party irrespective of the parties policies - and I mean generations of families. That is why things are so slow to change here. That and lack of viable political parties who can bring this country out of the 1970s. It won’t happen in my lifetime and likely not in my daughters - that’s the depressing truth.

To say -all- voted to spite a united Ireland / SF is a bit simple and simple stories can kill here.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the Unionist Brexit vote was driven by hardening the border. My point was that surely an NI resident Brexit voter would see that either a border would be required, otherwise NI would be a backdoor into the UK, meaning all them forrins would be passing through. If the options were hardening of the NI/ROI border, or a sea border. I'm guessing that hardening the NI/ROI border would be a nice bonus.

Would be interested to hear the opinions of those you've spoken with though. It's difficult to hear opinions from the 'other side' which aren't just angry sub-140 character rants online.

I have a hard time buying the "We got lied to!" bunch.

The thing is that we all got lied to, but some of us knew not to believe it. All the information & projections were there for everyone.

1 Taxi Driver: He voted for economic reasons, nice man, saw the battlefields from WW1 (as you know many NI people fought there) and he didn't want peace endangered

2: Security Guy: I think voted for NHS money, "sure all politicians lie" but I think had I gotten to him in 2016 I may have convinced him to vote otherwise

3: Another security guy: Into football happy NI team is doing well and racism fought hard, I think for him a little bit of a identity/not sure vote. I think he really felt bad when I told him about problems for us EU furrin's

4: Lawyer from North Belfast, involved in peace work, went to EU many times feels European. Weird he rehashed the "EU bad on Greece" (well EU commission was, yes, but also huge debts and cooking Euro books and EU parliament writes off debts, complex story) and "UK helped Ireland a lot with loans, not EU" (yeah to protect their own banks as well... so... interests involved) but he also felt disappointed so many people think ordinary unionists are bigots, tried to ban the DUP from his cafe.

I found it a bit weird he was still on the "but the EU" should budge side, there we disagreed, but clearly he's also unhappy with the Sea Border and I can understand that too. And he's worried about the peace here, he says unionist "community" (THAT word hah) is very angry, and was there with his son.

Not easy times. I guess us furrin's belong nowhere in a way, but at least everyone talks to us?

Sure, but many UK newspapers aren't in the business to make you think, but to make you identify with "your side" and turn "the others" into enemies.

Angry scared tribal mood people don't think clearly.

They know it.

But I do think you tick that box, you do carry some responsibility, and Brexit is such a mess my sympathy is of course a bit higher for the non Brexit voters.

But more anger is all we have now. And of course happy fish.