US Politics

America's history is very short. If you want more than that to boost your sense of identity, the "home country" adds some.

Also, there's the fact that it's such a varied range of origins the immigrants came from, making the American identity both broad and conformist, so having an ethnic/national identity that's more sharply defined is attractive to a lot of people.

More simply, the first generations of immigrants from place X stick together to help each other and their memory of the old home is still fresh. Even as successive generations integrate, they inherit something from the old group identity.

For all its flaws, the U.S. has more tolerance of immigrants who preserve a sense of ties to their old country than Britain does.

Back in the 90s, one of the New York papers did a survey comparing attitudes of people from long-standing Irish American families to new Irish immigrants.

Favourite film for Irish Americans? The Quiet Man.

Most hated film amongst Irish immigrants? The Quiet Man.

Not surprising, given that the (fairly awful) film is dripping with condescending, sentimental Oirishry. And John Wayne.

Looks like the list of pardons has been released. From a quick search The Orange Fraudster pardoned other fraudsters. I'd hate to think how much he has been paid for them.

As well as the pardons last night he rescinded one of his first Executive Orders banning his staff from lobbying for 5 years after leaving the White House. Refill the swamp.

t's like me claiming I'm Norwegian

Ahhhh thats why you so sexy.

*oops on caps

Its like he knew he wouldn't get a second term back then.

Hasn’t Biden said he’d strengthen that split between insiders going on to lobbying firms?

He can still do more pardons until midday Wednesday Thursday (US time) when Biden is officially sworn in.

and their memory of the old home is still fresh. Even as successive generations integrate, they inherit something from the old group identity

I wonder if there’s a bit of the group memory of old grievances that caused mass emigration: poverty, starvation and land theft foster this identity. Do Americans who’s ancestors left relatively stable parts of mainland Europe bitd identify in the same way? The American equivalent of wanting to be working class?

Mitch McConnell also gave a speech last night where he explicitly said Trump "provoked" the riot and "the mob was fed lies", making the Senate trial result look more interesting.

This discussion is maybe more suited to a lecture hall, or at least a pub, but I’ll try putting my core thoughts across.

the man has damaged the US more than any single individual

Putting this all on Trump is mistake. This has been the Republicam playbook for then past 20 years, with Trump a useful foil.

Depends on what you mean by ‘all this’. The gop leadership of the last 70 years bears responsibility for so much of what is wrong with the US today, but I think trump still possibly has had and will have worse impact than any single other actor. He’s a grown man with agency, so even if he’s enacting others’ grand plans he’s still responsible for his actions. Please see further details on those thoughts, below.

@hugo7

It depends on what you mean by damage, but I think Regan carried out more structural and long term damage.

Reagan is a contender, sure, as is Nixon, but we’re seeing Reagan with 40 years of hindsight. We also happen to have access to most of what Reagan authorised while trump and his collaborators have purposely covered up their tracks at every turn. trump’s impact, from the birther scheme until today, has seen few saving graces. His real impact won’t be known for a decade, but I’d bet dollars to donuts what we find out is only going to get worse.

Also when you look at the loss of life in Vietnam and extra judicial killings through the 60s and 70s, on a body count he scores pretty well compared to quite a few others.

Body count, as you put it, is a difficult point to make and to counter on a forum discussion but I’ll have a go.

9 years’ of Vietnam war deaths are estimated to be 1.2 million people, on the high side. trump’s actions and immediate policies only on COVID have resulted in at least 1/3 of those number of deaths in the US in a single year. It’s unknowable what would have happened if trump hadn’t dismantled the White House team keeping watch for epidemic risks; or if he had taken covid seriously and led the charge internationally to contain and cure it. What is knowable is that he chose the path of contemptuousness and self-serving ego every time, others be damned, and a year later... well here we are. Let’s wait until they eventually add in preventable deaths from unavailable health care, deaths in ICE/police custody, deaths from drug OD, deaths in Yemen, etc. These aren’t issues he could have resolved with the stroke of a pen, but what did he do at all to resolve them? Most of these problems he’s actively encouraged and enabled, as well as doing what he could in dismantling the systems of checks and balances.

You mentioned extra judicial killings but you know they haven’t stopped (BLM). Chicago PD, for example, are alleged to still operate multiple secret detention centres, where people of a certain skin colour are dehumanised in all sorts of ways and spend months without any due process.

Honestly, I think this is where his crassness and overt cuntishness clouds peoples views. If you put stoking already present divisions to one side, what are his top 5 onerous and irreversible policies?

His impact isn’t measured solely in his policies. I’ve spent some time writing this response so not going to go into writing an essay on his 5 worst policies or his 5 worst impacts, but I’ll throw 5 bad ones out there: COVID (more US deaths than WW2), racial division (how do you think 46 mill. Black Americans feel nowadays?), dismantling an honest attempt at public healthcare (people died because of $450/month for insulin), dismantling checks and balances for corporations (tax evasion, environmental policies, billions to his friends and millions to himself, etc etc), destroying what remained of US reputation abroad after 9/11. Add a bonus, unnecessarily sadistic one: taking immigrant children, deporting their parents, and putting the kids up for adoption in the US with no clear paper trails.

It could be argued that Reagan tried to do something good for the US (I’m not a fan though). What good did trump do? If bringing the military home comes to mind, consider that he probably did that for their support for his putsch (the letter from 10 former SecDef points to that conclusion). (And their votes)

The way he’s debilitated people’s trust in the US system of governance, in the US and abroad, is the worst wound he’s caused to the US as an entity. The courts, the checks and balances, the righteousness of the Law... it all only matters if the system works, and the system only works if the people trust and believe in it, because it’s a fiction that only becomes real if we trust it is real. That trust is now broken. If the US is to survive they need to repair it.

Every white person in the USA is decended from immigrants, it's nothing special, I don't get why they're always so hung up on being Irish or Italian or whatever. It's like me claiming I'm Norwegian because it was them that settled in Normandy then later invaded and settled England.

Also, there's the fact that it's such a varied range of origins the immigrants came from, making the American identity both broad and conformist, so having an ethnic/national identity that's more sharply defined is attractive to a lot of people.

It's always interesting that in the US, when asked of a US citizen, the answer to 'what's your nationality?' is not '(US) American', but Irish, German, French, etc., or whatever mix has occurred in the meantime.

Loving this;

https://twitter.com/nigella_lawson/status/1351838041573351428?s=21

I think that's so that he won't start the new party. No point doing that if you can't hold elected office.

It's disappointing that they're so 'proud' of their white immigrant ancestors, yet continue to foster a hostile atmosphere to non-white immigrants.

Maybe. But there are no English Americans for very different and obvious reasons. German Americans used to have a strong identity but that quietened for other (also obvious) reasons. Before the world wars, German Americans were a prominent group despite having to be a bit cautious because their ancestors mostly fought for the British crown in 1776.

One German American 1st generation immigrant I know decided to adopt Scottish identity. I know German Americans in Minnesota but they don't make a thing of the German bit.

After passing a $1.5 trillion tax cut a few years ago, republican senators are now complaining about the deficit and Biden's $1.9 trillion covid relief bill.

“We’re looking at another spending blowout,” said Senator Patrick J. Toomey ...
... 'And they argued that another round of stimulus checks would give money to many people who did not need it'

Wouldn't it be quite good if he actually started a 'patriots party'? It'd get 5-10% of the votes, basically ruining any chances for the GOP to win

Yes - that's exactly why McConnell is now probably in favour of convicting him in the senate.

As far as egregious presidential fuck ups go, Bill Clinton losing his nuclear codes and covering it up for months has to be right up there.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-cana­da-11591213

The way that article is written, it seems to suggest that losing the codes was the fault of an aide, and that Clinton didn't know about it? Or is that the cover-up?

According to Gen Shelton's book, Without Hesitation, an official had gone to check one month and been told by the aide that the codes were on the president's person but that he was in an important meeting and could not be disturbed.

A different official went to do the same check a month later and was told a similar story. When it came time to change the codes, an aide admitted they had been missing for months.

Gen Shelton said it was apparent that the president had not had the codes and that he had been unaware that an aide had lost them.

I don't get why they're always so hung up on being Irish or Italian or whatever.

Because the US is only 200 years old and people had immigrated to it, sometime people don’t even know where they came from and thrive for their identity.

Plus “Irish American” always sound better than “common garden American”.

Plus you get to plan a trip to the exotic lands of your ancestors.

To many ironies around American white supremacists to enumerate. Back in the 19th century, a lot of them called themselves "nativists".

Scottish/Celtic identity is popular with U.S. white supremacists because they see it as not just white but romantically and mystically white. Irish identity not so, because they (the U.S. Nazis) are mostly rabidly anti Catholic.

Braveheart hugely popular with Aryan Nations types.

Holy shit Joe Biden got The New Radicals* to reform for the inauguration.

*Its just Gregg Alexander I know

5pm GMT today, not Thursday.