EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Our navy all ready do this don't they?

Edit: they do (jump to 30 secs in): https://youtu.be/PdYInG9a7zw

Cons won 345 in England alone in 2019

They are making it more and more difficult to ignore what’s going on, the navy!! This is a gammons wet dream.

It's all about self determination and getting away from the self destructive UK Gov.

I can totally understand that and God - if I could find a way to get rid of the Tories I would.

I do think it's a shame though that this involves running into the open embrace of nationalists.

Brexit is a case in point of why nationalism is a bad thing, and I'm still not aware of any examples of nationalism being a good thing, ever.

I hope the uk does break up. The union is based on occupation and enforced serfdom. Devolution is a joke with reserved matters still decided in Westminster.

I'm still not aware of any examples of nationalism being a good thing, ever.

Well, in the mid 19th century it was essentially a liberal movement...

And in the mid-20th, for that matter, in the context of post-colonialism

Why is England/Wales/Scotland the correct unit? What about independence for Cornwall, Skye and Crouch End?

Open all borders! No more nation states!

I actually agree. I am not a nationalist and nor are many other Scots that now support independence.

Nationalism can be more open and accepting (SNP stance on refugees and immigrants) VS little England Brexit nationalism (exceptionalism / xenophobia).

Irish unification...same. Sinn Feinn does my head in with their tribalism. But well done with a place for unionists and a new Irish government setup, yes please. And many are working towards that.

Not easy though.

A live issue for Shetland

If Scotland goes independent what happens to me? Do I end with English (birth), Irish (mother from NI) and Scottish (where I live) citizenship and three different passports*? Will it be a visa and a strip search every time I visit my girlfriend in England or cycle through the borders?

* I'd have to move to Wales next for the complete set. Then I become de facto UK King I guess?

Scotland needs immigration- they’re fucked with Brexit in multiple ways.

It’s in their interest to poach people from the UK that will either work in new Scottish jobs or bring tax revenue with them.

Perhaps Dr Frankenstein will be available to deconstruct you into your different components again? :)

Well, in the mid 19th century it was essentially a liberal movement...

As you know, that didn't last long--and it was always a strange way of being 'inspired' by the French Revolution in any case. In Germany, he idea was to replace aristocratically-led government by government legitimated by national 'belonging', but this movement resulted in Wilhelm I. being crowned Emperor of the extremely nationalist 'small German' empire (without Austria, as the Austrian Emperor refused to submit to the much more powerful King of Prussia). This coincided with the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine in the name of extending German nationalist influence, ultimately the First World War, and in turn the Second. Plenty of other examples apart from Germany, of course, e.g. in Turkey--the Armenian genocide, the catastrophe of Smyrna, and so on.

And in the mid-20th, for that matter, in the context of post-colonialism

Leading to predominantly crackpot dictatorships within artificial colonial continuity boundaries, trying to impose 'nationality' on all sorts of people with very different identities.

Great for divide-and-rule, starting wars, and killing people. Rubbish for everything else.

(Obviously I know that you were just trying to give counter-examples to what Fox said.)

Rubbish for everything else.

I know it was an accident of history, but nationalism (in the sense of self determination) had a large part in undoing pretty much all the large european empires (Ottoman, British, French, Hapsburg, Russian (twice)...)

to be clear, i think the idea of the nation state should be confined to the dustbin of history, but it had its place

From the Eye

1 Attachment

Or everyone is stuck with the Tories because England keeps voting for them.

FTFY

Leading to predominantly crackpot dictatorships within artificial colonial continuity boundaries, trying to impose 'nationality' on all sorts of people with very different identities.

It's quite possible that I don't understand what nationalism means, but the gathering of popular support around the idea of a 'national' identity and the idea of self-determination in particular was important for huge numbers of people around the world in the mid-20th century. Your analysis seems incredibly dismissive.

I'm agreeing with @fizzy.bleach and not really adding anything except taking it a bit more personally. The governing regimes that have followed colonialism have been varied and none perfect but I would place the large part of the blame of problematic boundaries on the legacy of colonialism and power meddling rather than the desire of ordinary people not to be ruled and dominated by a foreign empire. In many countries "divide-and-rule and killing people" are associated as the mechanisms of colonial invasion, not nationalism. It depends where you're looking from.

the idea of a 'national' identity

Which is just an idea peddled by people it suits. I live in London and have very little in common with the good people of Worcestershire but a lot more in common with the folks of Glasgow and Brussels. Sadly the combination of numbers and our voting system means the little Englanders get all the power.

Again, I very much agree with you.

However I feel like because of Brexit a lot of this stuff has become something to look down on, mock and patronise. Like only stupid ignorant people yearn for self-determination and national pride. It's not fashionable but I do think it's more complex and deep-rooted than people realise. I don't know. I have such a different outlook on identity to my parents and most of their generation, but I also don't think they're "wrong".

That's why I said "It depends where you're looking from."
I'm suggesting considering a less UK, less euro-centric viewpoint.

Which is just an idea peddled by people it suits.

Is that really all it is? I agree the media and the politicians have a lot to answer for (don't they always) but is that really all there is to it?

For me personally "being English" and my relationship to that is something I've had to grapple with quite a lot. I know others who take it completely for granted and never question it, and others who feel absolutely no connection with it and consider it utterly irrelevant. It's a construct, but it still matters.