Masks Work & How To Make Your Own Face Masks

This article from The Lancet says that masks can be useful now:

In summary, the current best evidence includes the possibility of important relative and absolute benefits of wearing a facemask.

While also noting that careful research is needed to prove definitively the impact of masks:

(...) given the paucity of evidence for severe adverse effects that more invasive interventions have, wearing a facemask might be acceptable in many situations, despite the need for more evidence.

Https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30352-0/fulltext

unfounded statement

Most people (me included) won't be wearing the masks in the right way. So yes, I do think it is dangerous to wear a cloth mask. I would recommend getting something much more severe with a replaceable filter designed to prevent the tiny aerosole particles from entering or exiting. Of course, if only 1/1000 people can get one of those professional masks and everyone else is wearing cloth or paper, it's hard to see how this is going to be effective. The study cited (not unfounded) is in a hospital complex, true. So what? You don't think it's an entry point into the conversation? Why would you completely disqualify this if you did not already have a strong point of view that you'd prefer to defend.

WW3: Humanity against Covid

Right. That's a very reasonable position. We should just take people who are skeptical and shoot them in the head as deserters. Nice one.

Isn't looking at the infection of the wearer the wrong thing to focus on anyway? As I understand it, the effectiveness of wearing masks is to reduce infection of other people. If wearing cloth masks dramatically increases your personal risk, then I guess that's important to know and many people will not want to wear them, and the most vulnerable should be advised not to, but the focus should be on what works for society. The cloth mask might still be the most useful (at a practical level) thing to prevent transmission from a virus-carrier to other people.

The study cited (not unfounded) is in a hospital complex, true. So what?

The study says Vietnamese hospital healthcare workers wearing cloth masks had higher infection rates. Those folks are surrounded by infection risks for multiple hours a day. The average person, who you are writing for, isn’t in a hospital surrounded by sick people all day, so the study doesn’t fully apply to them does it? Therefore, your statement that cloth masks double chances of infection for the reader is unfounded.

As I said previously, let’s definitely discuss how best to tackle one of the greatest challenges of our generation, but let’s stick to the facts.

there’s been a few articles written recently about how we’re in the middle of WW3: Humanity against Covid

We aren't in a war. A war is fairly clearly defined as something else (eg armed conflict between different groups of people) and this isn't a war. It's also not a battle. People that die from Covid didn't die because they didn't fight hard enough.

Other things that need coordinated society change that also aren't wars include the mess we have made of the planet.

The average person, who you are writing for, isn’t in a hospital surrounded by sick people all day, so the study doesn’t fully apply to them does it?

If we aren't surrounded by sick people all day, then why the hell are we supposed to be wearing masks?

To reduce the number of people you infect if you have caught it but haven't developed symptoms (yet).

We aren't in a war. A war is fairly clearly defined as something else (eg armed conflict between different groups of people) and this isn't a war. It's also not a battle. People that die from Covid didn't die because they didn't fight hard enough.

Other things that need coordinated society change that also aren't wars include the mess we have made of the planet.

I fully agree with just a note that war is, sadly, being redefined by certain global powers. My point is that Covid (and yes, climate change) are as risky and disruptive as a war, maybe even more so. However, while we mostly all agree that it’s a danger, we haven’t taken it as seriously as a society as we would a massive war.

Radar71, I don’t think people who want more information or question why certain decisions are made are traitors.

If we aren't surrounded by sick people all day, then why the hell are we supposed to be wearing masks?

If you’re surrounded by people showing symptoms, like in a hospital, then a cloth mask isn’t the protection you’d need. That’s what your own source says. If you’re trying to live a normal life going out to shops and seeing friends, then you may come across someone who’s sick but isn’t showing symptoms. If they’re wearing a mask, as well as keeping social distance, then you have a better chance of not getting sick from them. If you somehow still get sick and don’t show symptoms yourself, then by wearing a mask and keeping social distance you reduce the chances of getting someone else sick.

That’s why you should wear a mask.

This is a forensic analysis of the virus from an organic chemist. Like the sheldon brown of face mask tech!

I read the entire article. I’d like to say that I am in favour of small government, but I see the need for government to step in when something would harm innocent people or society at large (see: stopping companies from using children in mines and factories, banning ‘pink slime’ being sold as chicken, preventing companies from dumping toxic chemicals into rivers instead of paying for safe disposal, etc.). However, I have yet to be convinced about how temporarily wearing a mask infringes at all on people’s freedom, except if we think that freedom includes putting others at risk of serious harm for little personal gain.

I can see the author’s passion for his views, although his FREQUENT USE OF CAPITALS and exclamation points were a bit distracting. There are many contradictions in what he’s written, frankly more than I’m willing to go into right now.

To mention a particularly funny contradiction, he ridicules lockdowns by strangely claiming that locking people down in a flat block would get them all sick because the virus stays in the air and goes from flat to flat, which hasn’t been proven to happen. His alternative would be to let people move about freely, meaning they could go on the tube and enter other large buildings for several hours a day. Would those people, who would have gotten their flat block sick, suddenly stop getting others sick inside train carriages and office buildings? According to his own argument, these people would then infect their office building and whatever public transport they used. He doesn’t mention it at all, but I think that would be a worse scenario.

The author doesn’t declare that his institution, AIER, depends on funding from sources that are well known for being against any government involvement in people’s lives. AIER constantly publishes articles claiming things like climate change isn’t that bad (although millions in Africa are already displaced), that sweatshops in Asia are actually good things for the locals (yes they bring in money, but they’re paid miserably little for terrible hours in inhumane conditions, and are then discarded like used cogs when they ‘break’, just so stock owners can make an extra buck), and other libertarian, Ayn Rand-loving lines.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_for_Economic_Research

Finally, you’re willing to fully believe the word and arguments of that one guy, who isn’t an expert on viruses or on healthcare issues but on chemistry, but you won’t lend much weight to the dozens of experts who have spent their lives studying and fighting viruses. Why?

Finally, you’re willing to fully believe the word and arguments of that one guy, who isn’t an expert on viruses or on healthcare issues but on chemistry, but you won’t lend much weight to the dozens of experts who have spent their lives studying and fighting viruses. Why?

Totally willing to listen to all voices. Epidemiologists don’t fight viruses, they try and understand the complex environmental co-habitation. But which experts are you speaking of? Seems like this is exactly the forum to post up.

Totally willing to listen to all voices. Epidemiologists don’t fight viruses, they try and understand the complex environmental co-habitation. But which experts are you speaking of? Seems like this is exactly the forum to post up.

There’s a few in the first post of this thread. :)

Right. The usuals. Regarding the guy’s affiliation to AIER. Looks like he’s just publishing his covid stuff there. But yeah, sucks that we have to go to a private American libertarian think tank for an article as interesting as this. Quite a few epidemiologists who do not agree with the Uk gov line, but they’re being banned on twitter etc.

I say we address specific content of sources rather than dismissing them because of the publication platform.

operation mincemeat in ww2

Brrr, this is grisly:

Two members of British intelligence obtained the body of Glyndwr Michael, a tramp who died from eating rat poison, dressed him as an officer of the Royal Marines and placed personal items on him identifying him as the fictitious Captain (Acting Major) William Martin. Correspondence between two British generals which suggested that the Allies planned to invade Greece and Sardinia, with Sicily as merely the target of a feint, was also placed on the body.

I can't really imagine Glyndwr Michael agreeing to leave his remains to deception ...

There’s a good book on this

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7632329-operation-mincemeat

Totally insane story.

I say we address specific content of sources

I have, please feel free to start doing the same whenever you’d like.

rather than dismissing them because of the publication platform.

I say we address the specific content of sources rather than dismissing them because they’re ‘the usuals’.

Quite a few epidemiologists who do not agree with the Uk gov line, but they’re being banned on twitter etc.

For Covid-skepticism? [citation], as they say, [needed].

There’s a good book on this
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7632­329-operation-mincemeat
Totally insane story.

I do agree with this. Ben Macintyre does an excellent job. His book The Spy and the Traitor is also excellent.

Don’t want to keep feeding this, but hopefully this article will help inform the discussion. The publisher, Nature, is a serious source, and the article quotes a lot of health experts, chemists, epidemiologists and other scientists who have conducted serious research. They all say there is good and sufficient evidence that everyone using masks help protect everyone. There’s even an ongoing Danish study that Radar71 might be talking about.

But don’t just take my word for it, go ahead and have a read.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

If you’re wearing a mask in public, you are doing the right thing to keep yourself safe, keep others safe, and help end this pandemic.

The discussion shouldn’t be do face masks work. We have enough evidence now that they do. The discussion should be which face masks work best. People wearing fishnet “masks” are only being as ridiculous as they look.

Sure, not all cotton is created equal, but even a cotton mask from a solid piece of old t-shirt will provide a net benefit. It only won’t provide any benefit if it’s not worn properly (it needs to cover mouth and nose) or if it’s made really poorly.

Edit- also, social distancing adds a whole lot of additional protection if people are wearing a mask. For some reason, the people who I’ve come across that don’t want to wear a mask also don’t want to keep social distance.

Anyone found a mask that minimises glasses steaming up? Spending a lot of time looking like I have a tiny sauna for eyes.

Not yet. I had glasses and a long beard. Wearing a face covering meant that my hot, moist breath (eurgh) caused my long beard to conform to the shape of my chin/jaw line and then out again. So, got rid of the beard. It was probably making the face covering less effective anyway.

Can't get rid of the bins though. Because vision.

These ones from Asos are the best I've found. The metal strip on the top is more substantial than other masks I've used and the adjustable ear straps mean you can get a decent fit. I find if you get the nose strip snug and it sits on your face alright you can avoid too much steaming.
Might not work too well with a big beard because there's not a lot of excess material, it's quite a close fit to the face.

Thanks, have ordered some.

Can't get rid of the bins though.

Bin night thread >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh wait, you meant...