Chat about Novel Coronavirus - 2019-nCoV - COVID-19

Rutte hasn't helped, he got roasted something awful on Zondag Met Lubach. No clear message/leadership on that.

I am a little confused by the mask thing, I get it, Dutch people don't like rules (well =some= rules, try putting your feet on the seat in the train without putting a newpaper under it...) but once they were made mandatory they were worn no problem in Norn Ire.

And where my parents are (the south) most people do wear them.

NI is already on strict household visit restrictions, no longer allowed and max 6 people of 2 households visiting outside the house. The virus is still spreading...

The rules thing is really confusing. When I first moved here from UK, and went through all the bureaucracy of registration etc, it seemed like the Dutch loved rules. So many things were met with a wall of "Not possible". And as you mentioned there's many small social rules that are religiously followed.

There's a strange cognitive dissonance going on (evidenced in that clip I linked to) where 'everyone should be free to choose how they live their life' somehow trumps 'this small rule will make life better for everyone', and is now meaning that 'no one is free to live their life as they want' with all the new restrictions.

So, I think this is how it works:

Shared Resource Rules are... rules. Littering, being antisocial on public transport, not paying taxes, being a greedy shit (hi ABN Amro Bank!), big egos, not cool. Boris would have 0 chance in NL.

The idea is rules are there to make society fairer (which is arguable...it depends on the rule, as this NI living Dutch finds out, but yeah, that's the idea) like you know...traffic lights. Same for all, chaos without them (though again, that's not always true) and of course rules can be unfair, like in any place. But sticking to them as a sign of common shared responsibility is a Scandi trait the Dutch also tend to have in society.

But when it comes in personal life/your body, well, that is not seen as a shared resource, but your own thing and so... as long as it does not interfere with shared society that is all fine.

I think that is where the mask resistance is coming in, and the PM should really point out that when it comes to SHARED stuff, like train seats, the Dutch are fine with rules.

Thanks for that, very interesting. Also interesting that there is a mask mandate on public transport, but nowhere else - another set of mental gymnastics to acknowledge that it's helpful and effective on a bus / tram / ferry, but not in a shop.

I guess my 'challenge' (not to you personally) would be that I would consider indoor places (I'm thinking mainly of supermarkets here) shared spaces, so people should respect that and avoid spreading their potentially infectious aerosols everywhere.

I'm more surprised than annoyed at the resistance to it, though there are thankfully a lot more people wearing them now.

Agreed, but that's the funny thing in Norn Ire it was public transport, and then 2 weeks later shops and honestly... not sure why?

We should really all wear masks inside the house when not eating too...but that's a hard sell for sure.

sniffs in cold picked up from son :)

Boris has just banned travel to wales from areas considered a ‘hotspot’ where are these tier 3 or tier 2?

Boris hasn't.

Mark Drakeford (First Minister for Wales) has.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-54540764

Ok my bad, anyone know if tier 2 is considered a hotspot?

My son had a temperature at 13:50, collected him from nursery, booked a test and was done and dusted by 14:50.

not bad, Islington NHS folk....not bad at all.

Apparently so, not sure how reliable this source is though.

https://twitter.com/hitsmcrnews/status/1316395823576559617?s=19

Thanks, looks like my trip to the caravan at half term is off 😔

We had a Wales trip lined up for late Nov early Dec, unlikely to happen now.

Us too, to make up for the holiday to Spain we missed at the start of the year.

I think the main reason for the refusal to wear masks is that they're a visible sign of government failure to curb the spread of the virus. While I have no problem with wearing a mask, I don't think they're an effective measure at all, except for certain situations like working in a hospital where you will need full PPE to work safely. People either like them because they give them a feeling that they can take more risks again while protected by their mask (probably not informed by very good data), or because they want to feel solidarity with others through mutual mask-wearing; or they dislike them because for them they feel like an unacceptable infringement of the freedom to which they think they are entitled, whether or not they connect the issue to higher-level political failure that puts the onus on them to 'protect' themselves.

I don't think either view is fully right, and that there are circumstances where it is better to wear a mask, i.e. as above, where close proximity to potentially-infected people just cannot be avoided, and there are situations where it is better not to wear one and instead to let people make responsible decisions about how to engage in more effective behaviour, such as proper distancing, which of course is still something people have the onus to do because of the original political failure. I don't really know if the inflexible, inconsistent, capricious, and usually wrongly-timed rule-making we are seeing in many or most places actively increases the chances of transmissions, but I think it's possible.

At any rate, as during the initial lockdown, what's happening is clearly divisive and pits people against each other. As is usually the case, dividing people lets those in charge off the hook.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/14/covid-blame-government-public-fault

Tier 3 is spreading like, erm, a virus

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-agree-manchester-and-lancashire-should-go-into-tier-3-lockdown-12104224

there are circumstances where it is better to wear a mask, i.e. as above, where close proximity to potentially-infected people just cannot be avoided

Only if the potentially-infected people are wearing a mask. The number of people who still believe that the point of wearing a mask is to protect the person wearing it, rather than the people around them, is bewildering high. "I'm not wearing a mask, I'll be fine" seems a common refrain, which totally and utterly misses the point.

Modelling shows they can be somewhat to very effective.

Sometimes it's impossible not to divide people, as there are always people that don't like rules and others that will turn it into a big culture war.

In no way though are they a replacement for competent government policies.

for Oliver

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Long Covid could present as four different syndromes, and it doesn’t matter how badly ill one was initially https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54540544

Report author Dr Elaine Maxwell said she had assumed those who had been seriously ill with Covid-19 would be affected the most and those at low risk of death were also at low risk of living with its long-term effects.
But the review found this was not the case.
"We now know that there are people with no record of having Covid who are suffering more than someone who was ventilated for several weeks," she said.

I taught a mate to fix his gears today, and the jerk didn’t want to wear a mask. What’s worse is his partner is a fcking midwife at Kings Hospital (which has an important Covid unit). Neither do socially distancing, and they’re just living life like before.

it’s becoming harder and harder to keep hopeful.

It’s also becoming harder to stay polite about people constantly ignoring known personal boundaries. Mrs HjustH and I spent several minutes crafting a response to a brunch invitation, and we’ve concluded we’ve been a bit too polite about people ignoring our Covid boundaries. If only there were a term like vegan which conveys clearly what a person’s preference is re: social distancing. It’s socially acceptable to react defensively to someone serving chicken to a friend they know is a vegan; how is Covid safety any different ?

I guess it depends on social circles. I've got friends who are perfectly happy saying "Thanks for the invite but we don't feel comfortable mixing in groups at the moment". They don't feel the need to explain about shielding or being nervous about getting covid in general and I've not been aware of anyone taking the piss out of them for it.

I've read this morning that London is going to be put into tier two lockdown later today, which means no mixing of households indoors.

I can see that that means that I (in London) shouldn't go to friends houses down the road. Does anyone know if that would mean also that I shouldn't travel to friends houses outside of the tier two restrictions?

As I'm typing that, it obviously makes sense that I shouldn't - I'm apparently now high risk so shouldn't be going to low risk areas, but it's going to mean cancelling a fairly important family occasion...

No doubt.

When people change their minds halfway thru, it’s trickier to navigate in an effective way that also doesn’t burn bridges. For example, what’s the best way to react when your dinner hosts assured you they had adequate space (2m or indirect sitting) in the garden, and then you show up and it’s clearly not the case?

This chap I trained yesterday I’d asked in advance, in writing, to wear a mask, and he agreed. Shows up without, so I give him a disposable one. 10 minutes in he pulls it down until I ask him to put it on. He counters that we’re outside so it’s not needed, but puts it on. When he did it again I told him I was uncomfortable and he needed to keep it on, and it changed his vibe.

No one likes feeling told off, but it’s not like I’m asking for anything extraordinary here.

You can still go according to this:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52646738

"
Tier Two

• People who live in Tier Two areas should aim to "reduce the number of journeys they make where possible" - according to the government
  
• You can go on holiday outside your local area as long as you don't share accommodation with people you don't live or bubble with, or socialise with them in any indoor setting
  
• People visiting a Tier Two area should follow the local Covid rules for that area
  "
  
  

But it depends on that "family occasion". If it's indoors then you can't join in with it.

We've got a holiday cottage in Kent booked for part of half term and had been planning to take a niece and/or a nephew, but that'll be out if we (in London) do move to Tier 2. We (myself, wife, daughter) can still go on our own for a little holiday.

We'll make the call on that nearer the time, it's also dependent on the area we are visiting.