#blacklivesmatter racism is a human problem

#rep

It's a fairly blunt but accurate summary of your posts so far.

"Racism is bad. Black people have been subject to systemic discrimination and oppression and that needs to stop."

"Yeah, but some white people have it tough too."

That's basically what you've said.

It's not too far from what I've got from the conversation, what point have you been trying to make that isn't boiled down to that?

If only it had been so succinct. And just the once.

That's the thing though, you've used plenty of words, but I'm wholey unsure of what you've been trying to say that isn't essentially what was just mentioned.

Well, I'm off. Let me know when he's gone.

communities and neighbourhoods need to be organised such that stereotypes never even form.

Yeah man, that's the ideal really, but history and whatnot mean that it's not what is there right now and things like BLM are there to push for such a place. Obviously that involves everyone not being personally racist, or being actively anti racist, but also involves shifting on a broader societal level, so looking at where privilege may affect you, and looking deeper at where systemic racism has been, and continues to be, a profitable thing for the generally, white male ruling class. It'd be great to be colourblind as one big lovely human race, but to get there you can't ignore the current injustice of how things actually are to get there, they need addressing directly, which means seeing race.

Another troll with little to say...

This is the trolly behaviour again btw, accuse others, who are longstanding, if not respected (😘) members of a community of being trolls when you need to remember you've entered yourself (fnar) from nowhere into an established community to only communicate in one place on a somewhat sensitive subject.

Yeah, no. This is a reasonably long thread, on a very big forum they're a part of, people know they're not trolls, you have jumped into said thread, displayed some classic trollish behaviours and are getting called out for it due to little evidence to the contrary. There's a definite difference, you need to prove you're not a troll, they did that already, on here at least.

I think some super concrete and well-founded examples of systemic racism that is invisible at the individual level would be great to see. I don't know of strong examples of such—do you have anything in mind?

You'd like, just to be clear, evidence of something that effects people, plural, but that is invisible at the level of a person, singular.

5G?

You can tell if people, singular, have been exposed to 5G - they develop a bad cough.

Systemic racism is present in everything, that's the nature of a systemic problem. It's system wide.

It's embedded in the architecture, the laws, the education of the nation (and, sadly, all nations).

An example would be unconscious bias - which is evident in the selection of CV's for interview, where African sounding names are picked less frequently than English sounding names, when the CV is the same.

Which is why unconscious bias training is needed, to show people where (to put it in very goal orientated terms) they might be putting their organisation at a competitive disadvantage in the market by picking less well qualified applicants because they're called Darren, or John, or Dave, when Sanjay may be a far better choice.

super concrete and well-founded examples of systemic racism that is invisible at the individual level would be great to see

drug laws and their enforcement, be that UK or US?

Do you have a link to that?

This is classic Sea Lioning, I'd recommend that you apply yourself to Google, and leave the cherry picked data behind you.

But it is necessary, because your phrasing and wording of each and every post so far makes what you are trying to say muddier.
I’m not even sure I understand this explanation of your posts.

In the simplest terms possible why are you here and what do you wish to achieve?
Are you here to voice an under served/unknown opinion? are you talking about your personal experience with race? are you trying to educate white friends/colleagues about racism/race in society? have you found a thread (This one) which means you can talk about your own theories on race freely? Where before you couldn’t?

And having read the posts of others in here since the beginning of the thread, what do you believe others are doing here? And why do they continue to post in it?

So it's entirely coincidental that you come across as being totally insincere?

Anyway, I don't believe you, and yes - in this conversation it's not me who is pretending to be someone else.

That's a you problem, I submit.

I'd also just like to ask - have you asked yourself why you (seem to) approach this issue in such a critical matter?

A lot of the points you've raised, whilst not necessarily totally without merit in and of themselves*, are very frequently used by folks with either no skin in the game or ulterior motives to dismiss the anti-racism movement as a whole, to try to undermine its aims by calling out perceived hypocrisy (akin to the 'neo-racism' you mentioned) or downplaying the effects of racism (e.g. 'person X is black, and they've not experienced Y').

*I'm well aware that 'the left', especially on twitter can be somewhat over-zealous, or quickly jump to see particular events through a particular lens - but relatively speaking these this is so far down my list of things to be worried about within this particular conversation, especially on a forum/thread like this, I'm just curious about people for who it seems to prove as big a hurdle it does.

As ever the phrase 'don't let perfect be the enemy of good' comes to mind.

I don't know about most people's ulterior motives, nor do I know how to know about them

I guess a good recent example of this would be actor Laurence Fox's boycott of Sainsbury's - based on his assessment that Sainsbury's creating online support groups for black employees in response to BLM was inherently racist and discriminatory.

Whilst you can theoretically argue that creating online groups for black people, excluding white people, is racist/discriminatory - to me is massively missing the wood for the trees in the current political climate - and intellectually dishonest to boot (especially in this case, looking at Laurence's recent political musings).

McWhorter is a serious and respected academic

I don't doubt that at all - though he specialises in linguistics, and I think his political views are just that - his political views.

I know there's not one monolithic view that all black people hold about racism and how best to deal with/overcome it - but obviously a lot of people do find these kinds of initiatives useful, and judging by current trends I'd posit there's more people in agreement than those who find it insulting/unhelpful. Can't keep everyone happy all of the time..!

As I said before, such big and complex issues aren't going to have simple answers - but I feel that when progress seems to be being made in the right direction, chipping away at that does more harm than good.

Currently on itv as part of BHM https://youtu.be/WAMPQEzbj-M
a really good documentary on black British football players and what they had to endure. An antidote here i went to my 1st football match mid 80s. I was called a wog and told to back home on a banana boat. I never to a football match until the mid 2000s. The event left such a scar on my memory.

The event left such a scar on my memory.

Sounds haunting.

Programme looks interesting, love Ian Wright. I work in sports broadcasting and impressed on how BT sport are representing bhm in the promos and interstitials. Remember this
going out also.

In agreement with this result, no effect was found for names of Latin origin, which aren't typically segregated by class in Latin American countries.

This is factually wrong. In many, if not all, Latin American countries, European sounding surnames (English, Spanish, French, Italian) are commonly associated with a higher socioeconomic class. In contrast, indigenous names are usually identified with lower socioeconomic class.

If you’re talking only about specifically Latin names in Latin America, then I’d wager it’s the name deal. The only difference would be that less common surnames are associated with higher socioeconomic class, and common surnames are associated with lower socioeconomic class.

It's not British but I watched this recently. Very powerful and available on iPlayer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRJkLgl56jk