#blacklivesmatter racism is a human problem

while it's widely recognised white working class share types of cultural discrimination that black, asian and minority communities face; can be used as a model to build from in regards to their struggles, nearly every sociologist worth their salt agrees that is distinct from racial discrimination, which Transends cultural and social conditions uniformly to, as is in the name, racial discrimination.

fact you seem to have made what I assume is an alt account to react to what is a 16 day old comment at best, or made an account specifically for this thread to post poorly informed takes, is really quite sad. it's pretty resident sleeper to have both the "what about the white working class??" and "reverse racism" lines in the comment.

it's pretty annoying to have people use a background I share with many as a dog whistle for right-wing talking points, especially in such a way which suggests we're to thick to understand the racism which affects many we share our neibourhoods with

white people have a net privilege by dint of their race

Maybe this comes about in one way or another because this is a UK based forum, where this, arguably, is the case.

But, we needn't make a comparison. I can accept that class based discrimination is real and prevalent, but there's no need to use this to trump racial discrimination in some way.

saying that a heroin addict on the dole in Middlesborough has some sort of white privilege

You've missed the point there. Imaginary addict is obviously having a shit time of it, but they haven't had to also deal with some of the extra barriers that being a person of colour in a system or society that is generally harder to get by in as a person of colour, that's the gist of white privilege, doesn't mean every white person gets an easy go of the rest of life and all it throws at you.

Wtf does this even mean?

Purest, purest whataboutism.

We can ask propsective babies if they'd rather be born into a dysfunctional lower-class white family in Middlesborough or a wealthy black family in West London.

Good luck with that? It's a strange thing to say really.
You might not be able to choose to be wealthy, although there's the opportunity for that to change, not so much with race, the bit you have to change is the way society treats race, part of which is acknowledging that people are treated differently based on race and and working to remedy it alongside other inequalities, rather than trying to play discrimination top-trumps in a thread about racism.

excessive salience of race in people's minds

This is where I don't get you.
Forgetting the fact that you're making an assumption here.

I can't really see a practical way of determining whether, in certain situations, the discrimination in a particular situation is bourne out of classism or racism if it's dubious.

But there are plenty of clear examples of racism.

Interesting that you think there's an "excessive" salience of race in people's minds. Racism has been used to put people down for such a long time, it's hard to believe that they wouldn't be aware of the dynamics of this on a daily basis.

Even more interesting is that you seem to be worried about it for some reason. I think many positive things have come about since racial injustice has become a bigger talking point lately. At this current stage, we could talk about race a lot more.
My only genuine worry would be some kind of negative backlash from, well, racist people.

Is wealth one of them? Is it really important to point out that people are also discriminated against for reasons other than race in a thread about racism where noone has said that people aren't discriminated against for reasons other than race?

Strongly suggest you read "Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race", by Reni Eddo-Lodge. Unless the very title is going to trigger you again, ofc.

Nobody's suggesting they don't have interesting points of view. Even Eddo-Lodge wasn't saying that. But in the country where the (white, working class) murderers of Stephen Lawrence were treated so much more indulgently than he ever would have been, had he been a crime suspect, and where ACPO decided it was much more important to spy on his family than devote proper resources to the murder investigation, it's hard to feel that a conversation about racism (like this thread) is being fundamentally unfair to white people.

Why did you recommend that book to me?

Because your arguments so far seem to downplay the significance of systemic racism and the book is an eloquent response to such arguments.

where ACPO decided it was much more important to spy on his family

And bring a malicious prosecution against Duwayne Brooks, a witness they'd originally treated as a suspect purely on the grounds that he's black and happened to be there at the time of the murder.

@user117829

Half white British, half black Columbian?

I don’t know a Colombian who ever mispelt their country of origin, I thought only ignorant Americans did that, just saying...

The fact remains that black people regardless of status, education, even location, still live with prejudice and trauma in the UK, today.

Maybe YetAnotherUserXXXXXX is from British Columbia, but is sufficiently post-Imperial to drop the 'British' bit. On the other hand...

Just on the point about the challenges of the use of the phrase white privilege, Claudia Rankine suggests white living as an alternative.

Not sure whether it's more useful but thought others might find it interesting if they want to look it up.

That wasn't my intention

What is your intention?

So far I don't think you've added one positive comment to this thread.
In fact you seem to be deviating the thread from it's intended purpose; to talk about BLM and racism. Instead, your points mainly seem to be pointing out what isn't racism.

neo-racism

Questionable.

I'd ask you if you have any actual lived experience of racism, but I feel that is taking it in too personal of a direction.

Maybe I should have said that you aren't adding anything constructive rather than positive.

@user119whatever - asking white people to reflect on the privileges they enjoy is a) not racist b) the bare minimum white people can do to begin to understand and possibly tackle the actual racism non-white people experience daily, racism that is more often than not, structured and exercised in such a way so as to perpetuate white people's advantaged position in society.

but you know this.

viewing race as the dominant factor in social interactions, seeing race before other characteristics of a person

People aren't doing this though, they're discussing the real life, actual ways race affects their lives and social interaction, in this country and when they interaction is with "the system" they may well be negative. People aren't putting it as the be all and end all, or saying other factors don't exist, but, especially in the context of this thread and BLM it's a specific conversation about racism. All you seem to be doing is "not all menning" a discussion about the patriarchy but when the discussion is about racism, overt or systemic. No one has denied that there are other privileges than race and that some of those will apply or not to people of different races. It's not about taking away something from the people with privilege, just noting that it exists and should be looked at and worked on, probably not by, say, trying to make sure white people are as likely to be pulled over whilst driving as black, but the other way around. Also changing the phrase white privilege to make it more palatable to us whiteys seems a bit white privilegey.

I have, yes, on several occasions. Then again, since my mother is white—which gives me inherent privilege—I wasn't affected by it.
Can you explain what you mean by this please?

In cases where such privilege is dwarfed by manifest disadvantage, it most certainly is racist

It's really not, they're both real things. You're imagery addict doesn't have access to the combined power of whiteness (which isn't really a thing) but may avoid getting picked up by the police on their way to score, or not looked over for a job if their name looks white. Small things but real things, they don't take away from white people who "benefit" from those little things but recognising those things happen makes a more equal society for all as you can then look to make them not happen, then ideally not actually matter enough that they wouldn't happen anyway.

I'm not mix race but I'm assuming that if you have a white parent/family you will have a better understanding/education of white privilege .You are positioned closer to whiteness and understanding of what that brings .I have read back on the thread to where this conversation started .Where racism and class structure can be deemed as the same they are very different for people of colour .We mostly live in working class areas in most uk cities alongside indigenous working class and other immigrant communities.For these young people structural racism in more prevalent to them then the class divide.

It's not about white people getting a +5 to their stats at birth for money and stealth, but recognising the fact that they don't, on the whole, need to worry about certain things because of their race. If imaginary addict was a women then she might also worry about being sexually assaulted by her dealer (not that men don't worry about being assaulted, especially in dodgy situations, but that would be a similar whatabout to what you've mainly been going on about) or she might walk home a different way to avoid dark streets. That's male privilege, the imaginary addict doesn't necessarily gain something by having a penis, but doesn't need to think about things that could affect them if they didn't. I'm a pretty poor, relatively working class white bloke, I obviously don't feel like I've gain much through the wonder of my skin colour, but I'm also able to look back on certain situations, maybe stupid shit I've done and realise things would've probably been different if I wasn't white, or wasn't male or whatever, that's my privilege at play. I've also realised through threads like this, and the wider BLM and discussions of privilege that things run a lot deeper than just my lived situations (probs privilege again). The idea of being turned down for an airB&B due to perceived race just wasn't something I'd have considered, but is obviously a real thing that runs alongside something similar I know about but don't have to really worry about like being stopped at airports for looking Muslim, although my comedy surname has lead to a few more drug swabs than I'd consider random.

Yes, thanks for your response. I was trying to get user117829 to explain what they meant because it sounded as though they were essentially talking about a form of white privilege (I think in the US people talk about colorism?) which is something they insist does not exist. Tbh I was trying to catch them out - but they haven't bothered to respond.

My asian and blacker friends that are similar to me in most other ways are no less privileged than I am.

You're trying to add up all the 'privilege' to some kind of total score and tot that up against how you've done in life, I suspect because you want to think, like most, that what they've achieved is off their own backs and due to how they've worked, I think that's why a lot of white people don't seem to like the idea, like it's taking away from what they've done. That's not what it's all about, as I've already said, it's more to do with being aware that some things aren't a concern to you, maybe race in an airport, sex whilst walking the dog or surname when booking a weekend away, it doesn't take away from what you have or have done as someone who can recognise their privilege, but does show where things can be different and can be made equal for those who may not have that, specific in that situation, privilege.