W F Holdsworth Cyclone - 1947

Which reminds me, H Lloyd for the Claud Butler tandem decals.

I could do with a quality set of vintage 27 11/4 inch tyres, they are not easy to come by
I like that the your hubs have the original wheel nuts by the way, well if not original then definitely of the period.

I'll keep an eye out for 27 tyres.

I missed out on a load of vintage tubs the other day. I need to look at modern tubs and see what there is available which could suit this build.

I find Panaracer Pasela the best 27 1 1/4 clincher. They run a bit fat though, so I tend to go for 27 1 1/8 or 27x1

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres/panaracer-pasela-pt-tyre-amber-wall-27-x-1-14-inch-32630/

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27x11-8-28-630-Panaracer-Pasela-Amber-wall-tyre-330g-Price-for-2-Tyres/164288927593?hash=item2640621769:g:abMAAOSwK65bxMHW

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27x1-25-630-Panaracer-Pasela-Amber-wall-tyre-310g-Price-for-2-Tyres/164363469079?hash=item2644d38117:g:So8AAOSw4gpbvv75

Wow, those Dunlop tubs!

Memory is a bit hazy, but there are two types of Fiamme rim. There's a lower profile type which has a more rounded top and it was intended for track-only bikes i.e. without brakes. If you look in the old catalogues you can see the difference. I don't think you can use brakes with those because the rim isn't deep enough to accommodate a brake block on the side of it. I have a feeling your new ones might be those.

Re. buying tubs, I had a similar situation. I came to the conclusion that the common size back then was 1", not as skinny as 21/22/23mm like they are these days. I went for Challenge Vulcano in 25mm and there's also the Challenge Strada Bianca tan wall in 30mm which has the same ribbed tread pattern as those Dunlops (edit: though I just checked and it doesn't seem to have the ribs any more). That was a few years ago I bought those, mind, and the trend with tyres has gone a bit wider so you might find more 25-28mm tubs these days.

Check out these:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23666168@N04/16565483866/

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/ddgcs/tyres2.htm

There's a lower profile type which has a more rounded top and it was intended for track-only bikes i.e. without brakes. If you look in the old catalogues you can see the difference. I don't think you can use brakes with those because the rim isn't deep enough to accommodate a brake block on the side of it. I have a feeling your new ones might be those.

Oh that's a shame @Jonny69, I will find some other Fiamme rims and compare them with the wheelset, You could be right.

Thanks very much for recommended tubs, I'll take a look at those and the links to the tyre treads are great.

Personally I think you can get away with modern tubs on a vintage build, not so much 27s, my continental and panaracer 2711/4 inch tyres stick out like a sore thumb. Very practical though for the commute.

I do like the look of the Challenge tubs from @Jonny69.
@falconvitesse hub service this afternoon, with great bearing surfaces

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They look brilliant and the axle cones as they are hard to replace if warn or damaged.
Any sign of the resprayed frame yet, or are we still weeks away.?

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I think the frame will be a number of weeks away.

Personally I think you can get away with modern tubs on a vintage build,

I'd certainly agree with this, if only because actual vintage tubs are unlikely to hold any air at all.

I think all old tubs (with the possible exception of a few cheap 'training' tubs ) had latex inner tubes which will have perished years ago.

Somewhere I have a Dunlop No. 2, which I have kept, not because it could be used, but as a memento mori for the English bike tyre business. Dunlop tubs were excellent quality, but they were too expensive for what they were. Old copies of Cycling will show this to be true.
By chance I had a conversation today with an ancient pro rider, and I asked hm what he remembered about Dunlop tubs, he said: 'Oh yes, they were good - no. 5's for road racing, no.2's for TT's.' I said: 'Yes, but they were expensive', he replied 'I dunno, all the ones I had were given to me by Dunlops'.

I had some too, and also they were given to me, but by senior clubmates who couldn't be bothered to mend them. I can confirm they were excellent quality, but that was 60 years ago!

The whole subject of tubs merits a small book - and that's just my puny knowledge.
I'll make three points now:

1. If, by some miracle, these no. 2's do pump up, remember that the rim cement which should be holding them to the rims will by now be just crystalline dust - if the tyres deflates it will come straight off the rim and probably cause you to crash.

2. A general point about tubs (which I learnt from Ken Ryall, an acknowledged expert). Do not fit a new tub the night before a race - if you do it will probably puncture. His opinion was that the rubber needed a few days to 'settle'. It was a very common experience to puncture brand new tubs in this way, too common just to be explained by Sod's law.

3. I gave up using tubs for non racing purposes in the '80's because everyone else had gone over to wired on 700's, which meant no one else had spare tubs, which meant that if you ran out of spares (quite possible) you'd be walking home.

They look superb, I'm jealous, it's incredible how light these old wheel sets are.

No, I think it's incredible that modern riders are prepared to accept heavy rims and tyres.

My contemporaries were obsessed with light wheels, and not without reason. Revolving weight is more significant than static weight (eg: the frame) when accelerating, and how do you win at track and road racing? With rapid acceleration - it's even helpful in TT's.

Wired on rims have to withstand the 100+ psi pressure needed for speed work, sprint rims don't need the same strength (and hence weight) because the pressure is retained within the tyre.

But sprints and tubs need a lot of skill and hand work, which is not compatible with making money, so we've been persuaded to put up with kit which is basically inferior to that which was used in the past.

Comparison photos and yes the wheelset would appear to be the pista rim, They have the the slightly rounded edge on the face (it's quite difficult to photograph)

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So beautiful though. Mega rare, those.

Thanks for helping identify them, I may not have noticed unless I had stored them next to the other rims or fitted them to use with brakes.

I've only just seen that fascinating ad and description of the Dunlop range of tubs.

It may not be immediately obvious, but I'm pretty certain it is pre-war.

I say this for two reasons:

1. Some of the tread patterns shown are different from the post war versions - the no. 2 is shown as having a plain tread, whereas the no 2's shown in the thread above are ribbed, which is how I remember them ( even I don't remember seeing the pre-war version). There are some other differences, for example the no. 3 I remember was more like a smaller version of the no. 5.

2. The prices: I'm sure these are pre-war prices.

There was something like a 300% inflation between the 1930's and the '50's.

So, pre-war, Cycling (the magazine) cost 2d. (i.e. £1 would buy you 120 copies!, in the '50's it was 6d), a reasonably good wage would have been £5 per week, a gallon of petrol (4.5 litres) about 7p. and a suburban three bed house (London) about £500. You can make your own estimates of the rate between the 1930's and the 2020's, but it's got to be at least 100 fold*, and more like 200 - excluding real property, obvs.

I think this will give some idea of just how expensive Dunlop tubs were, and why people would ride out to races carrying their racing wheels on sprint carriers - the tyres were far too precious to use for anything except actual racing.

• I mean you need to multiply by 100 (or 200) - I don't mean 100% which is only multiplying by 2.
  

Those track rims:

I'm fairly sure you could use them with brakes, but they may be made of lighter material than the standard version and so would be more fragile.

A clubmate once used a pair of Super Champion 'Medaille d'Or' rims for road racing. These were intended for track use, but could be used for TT's as long as the rider kept a very good look out for anything resembling a pot hole; they seemed to be made of material not all that much heavier than kitchen foil.

It's not possible to watch out for imperfections in the road surface when you're in a bunch,and my chum soon found himself sitting on the road watching the peloton disappear into the distance - he had hit a modest bump which caused both wheels to collapse.

@SideshowBob why have I not been following this thread! Sub'd.

I don't think we've competed on Ebay yet, but we've definitely both been looking for the same Fiamme rims! Fiamme (and Mavic) licensed the Longhi patent in 1934 for 25 years -> 1959 (comments on the Fiamme timeline). So from ~ 1959 Fiamme would have been able to drop the "BREVETTO LONGHI", who knows if they were in a rush to do it. But that ties up with the timeline for version 2 -> 3 ~ 1959. Similarly the change in the oval decals mid 60s for version 3 -> 5, maybe that happened sooner, maybe they had a lot of stock of the "BREVETTO LONGHI" decals to run through :)

[I don't know about Mavic, their website says the patent was licensed until 1947 but that's an odd term and the decals have "Licence Longhi / Breveté France et étranger" through the 50s - e.g. the version with "MONTLHERY" written across the diamond I think is ~ 1960.]

As you say, it's hard to tell from the pics (similarly trying to figure out from Ebay sellers' pics) but are you sure yours are specifically 'track rims'? As far as I know the ones that don't take a brake are much more of a trapezium shape. The first ad attached is from Holdsworth Aids 1961, but there's very similar in the Ron Kitching 1955 catalogue. Other ads say the first pattern is good for 'road or track' and the trapezium shape is 'track only'. The conclusion I've got to is a lot of the period wheelsets on track bikes, or described as 'track wheels', had that first pattern and that causes confusion.

Anyway, long story short, I say if a brake block fits and is square to the rim then you're good :)

Regarding tubs: my view is if the bike is historically significant / you're hanging it on a wall then be as period correct as your heart desires. If you're hoping to ride around and have fun on it you don't want to be on 70 year old tyres, even if you can find them! So you'll end up finding 70s or 80s tubs that 'look period'. So why not just use modern tubs that look period :) Personally I like tan wall Veloflex - the Criterium are sick but a bit $$ (and admittedly a bit jazzy). I've also very happily used the more wallet friendly Vittoria Rally (the slightly older logo looks better than the jazzy current one) and you can get those in 25mm width (although I like the 23mm on the narrow sprints). I like the looks of the Challenge range but also $$ and I haven't tried them myself.

Personally I'd forgive non-period for any perishables like rubber, leather, cloth, so long as it looks in keeping. A few years ago when I was being more uptight about it, a wise man said "the air in the tyres isn't from the 50s" - Flash, Hetchins website.

If you're a member of the VCC try searching the library for 1947. There's a scan of 'Cycling Manual 1947' which is an interesting read. I've also leafed through the Cycling magazines - the ads give a good idea of what components were available / lusted after. I loved the article about Wally Summers in 'Cycling, Second Series, 1947 01 08 Jan' "One word provides the key to success on the continent. When mind and body revolt against the strain of hard riding, you must obey the call of Allez"!

... with attachments

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Oh I meant to say, if anyone knows the date of that Radsport ad, or any other info, I'd be very interested. I recently bought some Fiamme 32/40 on Ebay with a "RADSPORT" decal and the pre 1959 stamp. I didn't check the posting carefully enough - they do not have the double eyelet ferrule, just a single eyelet in the inside rim surface. Not sure what the deal was, if they were a cheaper version?? They seem extremely light, worryingly light!

@SideshowBob I also meant to say, I think those wheels look great! And nice colour, looking forward to seeing the frame painted.

If you are still trying to source a seat bolt Ebay seller laterchater has some nice ones https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-TRADITIONAL-CHROMED-FRAME-SEAT-BOLT-AND-NUT-24-mm-BETWEEN-EARS-LEROICA/283929145211?hash=item421b7eef7b:g:778AAOSwbERdSwlF

I bought a couple of these and they look good, he also had some specifically Chater Lea seat bolts a while ago, not sure if he has any left. Very similar but a sexier nut imo :)

An excellent and informative post, Veloham !

A couple of points:

The Radsport ad - I don't know the date, but the reference to 'this year's Tour of Britain' suggests it's pre 1958, which was the first year it was called The Milk Race. Even this isn't conclusive since there have always been some people who prefer the Tour of Britain name (they include me). The ad certainly looks mid fifties.

The founding fathers of the Veteran-Cycle Club strongly believed that old bikes should not be 'museumised', but taken out and ridden whenever possible, so I'm sure they would have agreed with your comments on tyres.

Veloflex - I've got some of these and I'd say they are the best wired on tyre I've ever come across. Mine say they are 'hand glued' which was always considered to be a sign of quality with tubulars.
I would be interested to learn why this method makes a better tyre than vulcanising, which is the normal practice.

Your rims without the'longhi' ferrules. Those ferrules must add a significant amount of weight, especially when you've got 40 of them - perhaps your rims were intended for track use.
BTW, I've never seen any of those trapezoidal rims in the flesh - I guess most purchasers would want to be able to use their track wheels for the occasional TT.

Thanks @clubman! I have the clincher Veloflex (‘Master’ I think off top of my head) and Criterium tubs (I think equivalent to the Master clincher but don’t quote me) and have loved both.

Regarding those trapezium track rims, I haven’t seen many, there were a set of 28h on Ebay recently though and the shape is quite apparent. I just think the majority were the road/track version. As you say (in general) why wouldn’t you get a pair that would suit both? The set on Ebay was a very reasonable price but I didn’t buy them as I don’t ride on a track. QED :)

I was thinking that about my Radsport decal’d rims. I’ll clean them up see how they look but might have to be for poncing around town on high days and holidays :D

I'll have to try them out when I've cleaned them up against some brakes.