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Thanks for the suggestions, tyres are old but wire bead and not supple (hence the name). Theyve been fitted for a while pumped up with a horrible bob in them so dont think theres much chance of stretching. I think next step is flexible tyres, I did try a 4 season with the same problem but not really wide enough for the rim .
doug1e
new tyres? can be worth installing on a more forgiving wheel and leaving inflated for a couple of days. I have had tyres which I couldnt install on my velocity a23 rims (which also have a reputation) but once on/stretched have been able to reinstall without levers. For your problem perhaps a more flexible tyre might help (though this just a guess regarding bontrager tyre)