Which Groupset?

Turns out you need to start with it piss, not straight and once it's bolted to the braze on, then you use that stopper screw to push the arse end straight.

Yep, same as a Di2 mech. RTFM.

I did. My Di2 was never this much of a dickhead and that got a fair bit of tweaking done to it with different ring sizes. Maybe I just got lucky with it. Did they shrink the cage width or something?

Don't think so. Two main shifter positions and two trim settings. Same as standard Shimano double shifters. Cable tension is key as usual, which means you need to be in the right ballpark before setting the cable tension on the FD.

Maybe I'm using the wrong "edge" as the start point. The cage is so sculpted now I have no idea which front "edge" of the cage they want lined up with the chainring.

The cable tension adjuster on the FD was wound all the way in, which was why I didn't even think it was an allen key head - it just looked like one of their hollow rotation points.

Yeah, get it dead straight after starting with it slightly wonky. Then get cable tension right so that the trim looks like it is right, then dial H limit in to push the mech out further to clear chain when in smallest rear cog, then check L limit for when in biggest rear cog. Kinda backwards order to older ones but they work great when set up. Cable tension makes a difference to how far out the mech goes, then you fine tune that with H limit.

3rd time lucky... the cable tensioner thing is next.
Depends if he brings his bike for a third look ha!

Here's my take. You put the thing at the right height, set up horizontal with the bolt, push it out so it the outer part of the cage lines up with the big ring, our a bit further. Clamp cable and check if the big ring trim position lines up with the derailleur (these mystery white marks, that's what they're for).
If you get it there, or close enough you can just get there with the tension bolt just proceed with setting limits and check. If you can't get there unbolt the cable and add or release tension.

working on a neighbours bike

This is where you went wrong

I'm the resident bike lunatic aren't I and during lockdown everyone suddenly became friends.

I don't even like working on my own fucking bikes! If I had the money I'd have a workshop next door that I could just throw my bike in after every ride.

If only there was a way of setting up your bike without the need for a front derailleur....

I like front deraillers so much I even put one back on my 1x Shiv.

Yeah, well I had another go, this time with the cable tensioner thingie and it might be better but it's still not perfect. I dunno if it's bent or if the cable is sticky or if I'm not starting in the right position or what.

If I adjust for one extreme the other extreme rubs - I can't get the whole range of the cassette to not rub the FD cage.

That's what trim is for, on the new ones the H limit isn't really a limit, it's more of a how much extra movement do you need to clear the chain in the smallest cog with the amount of tension you've given it to shift up and leave a bit of trim up and down. Before you do all this shift up whilst holding the mech in place to make sure the cables are "stretched" and the outers are settled into place properly, otherwise the change in tension from settling in can mess with where you've set.

I've dragged the cable out hard (and this time use the cable tension bolt) but it's an aero frame so who fucking knows how convoluted the routing is. At max (trimmed) in or out it's still rubbing so I gave up. If the choice is rub the chain on the cage or clip the crank arm, I'm going with rubbing the cage.

It can get all the gears and doesn't hit the crank arm, it just sounds rough in highest gear and when cross-chaining in big/big so fuck it. Must've spent 3hrs trying different starting points. It "works" and he can take it back to the shop to get done properly. The bike is not even 3 months old so they can have a go at it.

Meanwhile my 7800 and the grrl's 105 or whatever the fuck it is, take about 2min to setup and work just fine.

Seriously, did someone from SRAM infiltrate Shimano?

Seriously, did someone from SRAM infiltrate Shimano?

Aw, come on, it's not that bad. It's fiddly to set up, but it doesn't just dump the chain off the rings completely every time you have the temerity to try shifting the front mech.

Is it definitely rubbing on the cage? My new cross bike sounds a bit rough in big and small gears on the cassette, but it's definitely not the FD, because it doesn't have one. I think that the short chainstays (which you could well have on an aero frame) just mean that the chain is on the edge of its articulation when you're at either end of the cassette and so sounds a bit unhappy.

They pretty much get set up wrong all over the place, it's rare that I have a new design one come in that's done right, but they work really well once sorted.

it doesn't just dump the chain off the rings completely every time you have the temerity to try shifting the front mech.

:)

Yeah, there's seemingly no position that it won't rub on one of the extremes. Yes, I know he shouldn't be cross-chaining but still it shouldn't be rough as guts if he is. There's definitely excess chain noise in general but it's definitely rubbing - I'm also adjusting to the finest gaps I can by eyeballing along the inner cage and turning the limit so it just clears, so as not to push the cage further out (into crank) than necessary.

Maybe when it first loosened off, something went awry with the cable. I did notice that even if I'd backed off the low limit, I could still push the cage further inwards and thought maybe it's sticky cables. But then when using the shifter to dump it into the small ring, it traveled all the way so in-use this wouldn't be an issue.

I need to watch a pro set one of these new FDs up and see if there's something else I've missed. In fact, I might "upgrade" one of our bikes to this new style and work on it until it's perfect. Then at least I'd know if his derailler or the cables are fucked in some way, rather than it being some setup tweak I'm missing.

I've not used this new style but does it actually have any advantage over the older FDs? I never had issues shifting on the older stuff. I've got to assume they're better and this has something wrong with it, or I've fucked a step, because they shouldn't be this complicated for no benefit.
Maybe they take some effort out of the lever to change? For people with weak hands or something? I dunno. Anyone got a spare R8000 I can swap onto my bike?

This is your scoble marathon moment

I dunno, I put an R8000 front mech on mine the other day when I stuck a load of GRX stuff on, it shifts way better than the rival that was on there in the few miles of commuting testing I've done, there is some noise when cross chaining but don't do dat. My comparisons to older shimano are all on other people's bikes I've fixed, the older stuff also worked really well, this seems to get rid of that initial firmness from the big lever arm before it threw your chain up, the same firmness that made trimming towards the big ring if you wanted to do small/smallish kinda hard, so I guess it's better but they are both good. I think the shape is also meant to play better with all the increased tyre sizes knocking about.

I mean, it's not, but sure.

there is some noise when cross chaining

Am I just expecting too much from it then?

I tell people there will be noise cross chaining and don't do it if they say there's noise when cross chaining. This R8000 defo is more sensitive to it than the rival I took off, maybe a thinner cage for better actual shifting, should be able to eliminate it with trim for everything except maybe big/big, small/small and the maybe the gears next to them, that's what I aim for and tell people to avoid, also if it's a triple then middle/biggest or smallest. Some short chainstay frames also leave the chain making a racket on the inside of the big chainring when in smaller cogs at the back.

So, what you're saying is, my setup is fucking golden and the FD's shit? That's what I assumed of course, because #hippyisalwaysright

Shimano, you'd disappoint me if I was ever going back to cables.