#blacklivesmatter racism is a human problem

Corny, I love you man..

I want to share this from Radio 4 women’s hour last weekend had a good piece about raising black children in the UK and dealing with racism around 27min on this link.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jsz8

From Kimberly Latrice Jones breaking down why and how the current system is rigged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLDmB0ve62s

A really really good movie, covers a really wide range of difficult topics beautifully well.

Haven't found the UK counterpart, any recommendations?

I'm a white dude so it's not really an easy subject to 'discuss' on an internet forum. I talk about it a little with friends face-to-face. Tyres and handlebars and experiences of riding bikes have much less peril!

Thanks for your answers, understand there is further reading out there, but I was interested in other's opinions on here so asked! The statue thing was more about possibly differences in how the current protests are playing out / beginning in US/UK. I found it interesting. (Then I see about the Columbus statue in Virginia today). Have been following the protests, but wasn't sure if this thread was for discussing that news or a more general overview of the subject.

well that's just my opinion - we all have different ones

much needed thread.

I am the white son of a barrister and a teacher. I went to a private nursery followed by a prep school followed by a private school. How many black kids were in my schools? From memory, 5...in total. I grew up in Blackheath, a largely white area in the heavily BAME borough of Lewisham.

When I was about 18 I met a Ghanaian man who became my business partner and 20 years on is one of my closest friends. I remember very clearly sitting in our office talking to another friend, Catherine from Zimbabwe, and I argued until I was blue in the face that racism didn't exist in the UK. I cringe with disgust at myself when I think about the memories of my old opinions but Catherine and Bart, for whatever reason, didn't grow angry with me...they talked to me and shared their experiences. I will always be in their debt for the patience and caring attitude they shared with me at the time.

Why am I saying this? I think its important to recognise that the reality of what BLM aims to achieve is that a whole lot of people will be expected to change their opinions and part of this will be encouraging people that to change your mind and recognise that you were wrong is a strength and not a weakness. That might actually be the biggest challenge of all. People have some pretty powerful defense mechanisms to avoid thinking they are wrong.

Not being easy doesn't mean we shouldn't do it or hide away from it though?

The peloton of cycling is almost exclusively white, the support teams are almost exclusively white. Imagery in marketing and advertising of cycling is almost entirely white etc There must be real conversations to be had about that.

Powerful programme.
John Oliver really focusing on the history of inaction and clarifying things like the real meaning of defunding the police (and increasing funding of a social network that has been dismantled in the US and here)
And Kimberly Latrice's ending that show was something else.

I was trying to write a response to your questions, but it gets difficult and sticky really quickly. The black community can't answer what is black, because its lots of things and nothing, but mostly its about how those who are of an ethnic background define themselves and the culture they have created/inherited, vs how we are defined by 600 odd years of slavery and racism, within the white societies we live in.
It's complex and you'll never really find a perfect answer, its bound up in class, religion, imperialism, and language, I usually define it as if you're darker than a caucasian, then you're black no matter you're ancestry/cultural history, because that's how white society will view you, and if that's the case we (people of colour) can discuss the differences between us of how we are same same, but different, because we understand what it's like to be "other" within this country and how it feels to be discriminated against.
White society doesn't care about the distinctions, because " we all look the same".

Thanks- it’s complex and has many different aspects to it and at many levels is misunderstood.
Your reply made me sad that the feeling of not fitting in and feeling that the whole of white population is against you is so strong. I naively thought that there had been a lot of progress since the days of Enoch Powell but I guess that those experiences and injustices run deep. Something that I’d not really ever thought too much about...
Main thing is I think that we are all willing to listen to each other and reflect and do something about it however insignificant we think that might be.

This is really powerful, thanks for sharing.

Fraid not, keep looking and let me know if you find anything...

Not being easy doesn't mean we shouldn't do it or hide away from it though?

I'm not sure. It's really hard to express nuance on a forum with strangers. I'm not sure I can add much. I'd rather hear from people with direct experience, who know what they're talking about.

The peloton of cycling is almost exclusively white, the support teams are almost exclusively white. Imagery in marketing and advertising of cycling is almost entirely white etc There must be real conversations to be had about that.

There is definitely evidence of rampant racism within pro cycle sport. Passions run deep and people reach for their deepest, ugliest prejudices. It's also somewhat corrupted - almost inevitable when there is so much gatekeeping. I just don't know what we do about that. The numbers of people involved are nothing compared to those who suffer (for instance) police discrimination, so it's hard to make the case for action in this area I feel.

I suspect the reason pro cycling is so white is to do a with access and opportunity but also very much economics. The cultural centre of pro cycling is still Europe and the money in cycling comes mostly from majority white countries. Brands market to those within those territories with disposable income. It must be tough for Colombian's to break through, really difficult for an Eritrean but virtually impossible for a rider from a nation with less of a cyclesport scene. Teams are often staffed by ex-riders. Those who may have got into the sport in the 1970-80s - when the nationals and national scenes they emerged from were more white.

I have a lot of thoughts about "not being black" which basically boil down to having the overwhelming benefits of white privilege, as well as the absolute privilege of being 'different' (not white) and having that perspective from an early age. It does mean I also get a lot of weird internal conflicts and expectations but I'm so glad, overall. Funny thing to say since none of us can change our roots. But if I try to imagine growing up white it gives me a profound sense of loss.

I don't think it was patronising, neither do several other people.

Blunt? Yes, because as explained in the first sentence the manner in which the post was made sent massive red flags for bad faith arguments. I didn't even touch on the fact that the asking those questions in that way (rather than asking if someone could point them to articles) is innately a racist microaggression as it implies that the question asker believes this to be new lines of inquiry and that no amount of black academics would have thought to research it previously.

Nobody has to be well read to understand anything in that post. If you inferring you want to discuss my understanding of intersectionality then my DMs are open, however if you're posturing or attack me because I did some basic work or to infer whataboutism (seriously what about x, y, z in a BLM thread is one step from all lives mattering - have a word) because I upset you perhaps you want to take some time and consider why my post offended you and made you uncomfortable in the first place.

Don't wanna see this thread get too fightey. Please.

Poverty plays a much more significant factor in crime statistics, and poverty affects BAME populations significantly more

this is very true. also true for fire statistics. But poverty is complex, so we use the Index of Multiple Deprivation amongst other datasets for targeting our prevention measures.

That ranks all Census LSOAs on the following factors and combines them all for an overall score.

Income
Employment
Education, Skills and Training
Disability
Crime
Barriers to Housing and Services Rank
Living Environment

What about reparations (like in Watchmen for people who were in the Tulsa massacre)?

Decendents of families made rich through slavery pay a slavery tax that goes to charities that offer support to Black people, or just goes to all black people.

I'm generally against reparations as I find them patronising. What price can you put on generations of forced indenture under unspeakable conditions, and the lasting damage caused?

I don't think that it should/ could be paid but a good basis could be inflationary adjusted compensation payouts (I think I saw it quoted at £16.5bn) from the government to slave owners when slavery was abolished in the UK.

As someone of Jamaican heritage, I found it 'out of place' when David Cameron visited Jamaica in 2015 and the Jamaican PM raised it with him. Due to the record keeping of compensation payouts, his family along with others were shown to have been paid compensation by the government of the time.

You're right, I don't want this to get derailed. Sorry, my bad for not leaving it.

I think you had a fair point.

It was more of a pre-emptive comment really.
Lots of threads get fightey quite quickly on the forum at the moment.

This is a short and easy to read piece from 5 years ago - addressed to a white audience about the inherent difficulties of discussing and confronting racism.
"I, Racist" by John Metta -
https://medium.com/thsppl/i-racist-538512462265

Err ok - I found it patronising others didn’t. This thread is not about point scoring about how much we understand or don’t. We all have different experiences and backgrounds.
If you have an issue with me fine but I don’t with you.