Chat about Novel Coronavirus - 2019-nCoV - COVID-19

@rakesmith I am sorry ihaven’t bothered to read all the last few pages but what is fascism is one of the questions as a historian i have been interested in for a long time. as i understand it fascism is PRIMARILY the use of the state and its resources for the benefit of corporations connected to that state conceived of within a competive capitalist global arena. this is how it is originally expressed by fascism’s founding thinkers and arguably is very close to what we have today. things like the state paying compensation to private entities for the financial damages incurred by the abolition of slavery; bank bailouts; and state institutions servicing resources the use of which private companies then sell on (like rail systems, and training doctors who have private clinics) are all examples. the consequences are ghastly as we all know

The tories are not fascists. They are horrible, responsible for lots of deaths through austerity and have fucked up a lot of covid stuff but they're not fascists.

Try reading exactly what was said...that might help you out there

But also - if people are willing to argue the current tories aren't fascist/fascistic then can we at least have some evidence/argument against? Rather than just stating that they're not and leaving it there.

if people are willing to argue the current tories aren't fascist/fascistic then can we at least have some evidence/argument against? Rather than just stating that they're not and leaving it there.

I don't think that's how that works.

why not? haven't we pointed many ways in which the electorate and government have shown fascistic behaviour?

What definition of facism are you working with?

Is this an ok starting point -

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

^ sounds like China to me

I hate the tories but the current ones are free market capitalists - not fascists

No i'm sorry but why not just come at me with some non-fascist stuff about the tories? The fact that you're going at my definition of fascist rather than offering actual defence of the tories as non-fascsitic is avoiding the original question lol

They've just taken us out of the largest single free market on the planet.

'Free-Market' as in - if you're a tory donor you'll get state aid and contracts ? if you're a normal business you'll struggle to get any form of fiscal aid by way of a loan offered by the banks during this crisis?

I think that if we are going to debate whether or not they are facist we need to agree on what facism is.

Otherwise it's not a fair argument.

To try and trade with less restrictions (not that it'll happen)

For a lot of people that 'hate the tories', are 'labour members', i'm hearing a lot of defense for the tories here

It's not a defence of the tories to say that you are wrong that they are fascists - it's just pointing out that you're incorrect.

But did i not explicitly state that the tories/electorate are showing fascistic behaviour and that if it keeps up then we may very well end up with fascism...as oppose to just call them straight up fascists?

I'm not saying they are fascists. I'm saying they're not fascists yet but that if things keep up as they are we may end up with fascism in some form. None of you are showing me how the tories aren't fascistic...

Feel free to take the conversation to a politics thread >>>>>>

More evidence for the prosecution;

https://twitter.com/halfon4harlowMP/status/1254763225314361347

There's definitely a whiff of authoritarianism, ethno-nationalism, but it seems to me it is mostly nepotism that is causing most of the problems.

Though some elements around Brexit were definitely a bit dodgy like the courtcase around article50 that was required, the lack of scrutiny around the referendum and so on.

Being chummy with some newspapers/donors or you won't get in otherwise (hi, Murdoch) and corrupt aren't elements of fascism perse.

[my view on the Tories tend to be expressed in language that is best not repeated in public for reasons of unoriginal vulgarity]

Otherwise it's not a fair argument.

It's certainly an utterly pointless one without agreement on what the term being used is. The trouble is that words like 'fascist' or 'socialist' just become synonyms for 'stuff I don't like or approve of'. Which renders them useless as descriptive terms.

Latest FT piece on newest ONS data release, currently estimating 45k deaths when those in the community taken into account

https://www.ft.com/content/0ed8ea34-ebc5-4425-b86a-7a29447de57b?desktop=true&segmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a

But did i not explicitly state that the tories/electorate are showing fascistic behaviour

Mmmmkay.

None of you are showing me how the tories aren't fascistic...

Well if you're not saying that in the first place, then the argument you identify that people aren't running would be a strawman argument. And taking strawman points is bad. So not doing so is good, yes?

It is important to define the term otherwise people will keep shifting the goal post to win some internet points in the argument

Fuck me I really need to do this comparison table don’t I?

Absolutely classic that after 10 years of Tory rule, with another 5 on the way, we are out of the EU and in the middle of a global pandemic that has killed 40,000+ in this country, parliament is suspended and some people want to agree an exact definition of fascism before they can start criticising the government.